1.3 anamorphic projected at 2x

[Bill Hunt]

Hi,

This is my first post, having gained much knowledge here in the past as a non-member.

Setting aside other technical issues - I have a set of reasonable quality anamorphic (1.3) lenses which I could adapt to my Bolex H16.

I also have an anamorphic adapter for my 16mm projector, but (you guessed it) it’s 2x.

Is there any point in going down this path, or is projecting 1.3 at 2x a bridge too far?

My feeling is that I should just forget the 1.3 lenses and (if anything) look at a 2x adapter for the camera.

I’m shooting Tri X reversal and processing myself in a Lomo tank—which I’m sure we’ll address at a later date.

Thank you.

[Giray Izcan]

When using a 1.3x anamorphic, you still print it on regular 2x anamorphic so you should be just fine. 1.3x lens allows s16 or 1.78 aspect ratio to be printed on 2x anamorphic with minimal crop is all.

[Bill Hunt]

1 hour ago, Giray Izcan said:

When using a 1.3x anamorphic, you still print it on regular 2x anamorphic so you should be just fine. 1.3x lens allows s16 or 1.78 aspect ratio to be printed on 2x anamorphic with minimal crop is all.

Thanks Giray,

My main concern was that the 2x anamorphic lens on the projector would “de-squeeze” the 1.3x image captured on the film too much, leaving me with a noticeably too wide screen image.

If that’s not the case I’ll be very happy.

 

[Dom Jaeger]

8 hours ago, Giray Izcan said:

When using a 1.3x anamorphic, you still print it on regular 2x anamorphic so you should be just fine. 1.3x lens allows s16 or 1.78 aspect ratio to be printed on 2x anamorphic with minimal crop is all.

He mentioned he’s shooting on reversal, so the processed film (with a 1.3x squeeze) is the print. 
 

7 hours ago, Bill Hunt said:

My main concern was that the 2x anamorphic lens on the projector would “de-squeeze” the 1.3x image captured on the film too much, leaving me with a noticeably too wide screen image.

Assuming you are shooting reversal in order to project it - yes that’s exactly what you’ll get, an over-stretched image with people and objects looking very squat. Might be ok if you’re planning to shoot a Lord of the Rings movie about the Dwarves, otherwise you would need to source a 1.3x anamorphic adapter for your projector.

[Bill Hunt]

22 minutes ago, Dom Jaeger said:

He mentioned he’s shooting on reversal, so the processed film (with a 1.3x squeeze) is the print. 
 

Assuming you are shooting reversal in order to project it - yes that’s exactly what you’ll get, an over-stretched image with people and objects looking very squat. Might be ok if you’re planning to shoot a Lord of the Rings movie about the Dwarves, otherwise you would need to source a 1.3x anamorphic adapter for your projector.

I had to laugh at that one, thanks Dom; also for the information.

I’ve heard some people have used the 2x projector lens (adapter) as a 2x camera adapter as well. That might be a less expensive workaround, worth a try anyway.

At least I’ll get the right squeeze using the same glass for both. Redstan (UK) seem to have some very nice looking mounts/adapters for this purpose.

It’d be good to find something here in Australia but I’m not holding my breath.

 

[Mark Dunn]

Which 2x projector anamorphic is it? Some, such as the Kowa 8Z/16H, were intended to be used for photography as well. I had one for many years. It vignettes quite a bit at short focal lengths.

[Bill Hunt]

7 hours ago, Mark Dunn said:

Which 2x projector anamorphic is it? Some, such as the Kowa 8Z/16H, were intended to be used for photography as well. I had one for many years. It vignettes quite a bit at short focal lengths.

It’s the Kowa 16s Mark. 43mm rear thread which I’m pretty sure is smaller than the 16h.

It’d be nice if I could find a 1.3x projector lens—my problem would be solved, but I doubt I’ll find one.

Edited December 19, 2024 by Bill Hunt

[Mark Dunn]

17 hours ago, Bill Hunt said:

It’s the Kowa 16s Mark. 43mm rear thread which I’m pretty sure is smaller than the 16h.

It’d be nice if I could find a 1.3x projector lens—my problem would be solved, but I doubt I’ll find one.

The 8Z is quoted as 43mm as well. It has a focus rack, so you could adapt it. Vignetting was quite bad on my Super-8 zoom but it would probably work with Bolex primes, they're quite small.

Edited December 20, 2024 by Mark Dunn

[Jon O'Brien]

On 12/19/2024 at 6:53 PM, Bill Hunt said:

I had to laugh at that one ...

 

Me too. Actually laughed out loud ... rare for Cinematography.com ... usually so serious here.

Sounds like an exciting project and we film lovers will be very keen to see your results.

I'd be inclined to keep looking for a 2x lens or adapter for your camera.

I looked into getting into 16mm anamorphic but decided to stick with spherical. I suspect anamorphic 16mm in a lot of cases may look a bit soft but I'd be happy to be informed otherwise. I think anamorphic 35mm is a fantastic look and of course so is 35mm spherical.

Edited December 20, 2024 by Jon O'Brien

[Giray Izcan]

2 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

Me too. Actually laughed out loud ... rare for Cinematography.com ... usually so serious here.

Sounds like an exciting project and we film lovers will be very keen to see your results.

I'd be inclined to keep looking for a 2x lens or adapter for your camera.

I looked into getting into 16mm anamorphic but decided to stick with spherical. I suspect anamorphic 16mm in a lot of cases may look a bit soft but I'd be happy to be informed otherwise. I think anamorphic 35mm is a fantastic look and of course so is 35mm spherical.

Actually I did too hahaha. Sorry I should have read better before getting excited. Happy holidays.

[Bill Hunt]

5 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

Me too. Actually laughed out loud ... rare for Cinematography.com ... usually so serious here.

Sounds like an exciting project and we film lovers will be very keen to see your results.

I'd be inclined to keep looking for a 2x lens or adapter for your camera.

I looked into getting into 16mm anamorphic but decided to stick with spherical. I suspect anamorphic 16mm in a lot of cases may look a bit soft but I'd be happy to be informed otherwise. I think anamorphic 35mm is a fantastic look and of course so is 35mm spherical.

I’m very taken with anamorphic too (as you may have guessed), I use them a lot with my BMPCC 4K’s, but here’s my dilemma;

In times past I became quite good at focusing 1.3x anamorphic without the aid of a monitor that I could set to stretch the image—now of course, pretty much every camera/monitor de-squishes to order.

However I’m not sure it would be anywhere near as easy with the image squashed 2x, and especially through the Bolex viewfinder… not to mention my eyes are not what they used to be.

So at the same time as I think I’ve put together a workable technical solution for the Bolex (Kowa with a single focus adapter out front, mounted on rails), I wonder if I’ll manage to SEE focus.

While I puzzle over that one I’ve just got myself a motor to restore—cheap, as it’s just the motor without power supply etc.

I think it’ll be an easy one, but that’s for another post…

Edited December 21, 2024 by Bill Hunt
Clarity

[Geffen Avraham]

Why don't you use one of the Panavision variable anamorphic projector lenses? They can do any squeeze.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/396015735043?_skw=super+panatar&itmmeta=01JFMD9GQS43MVCG2J0S677YMP&hash=item5c34609103:g:n0cAAOSw2qhnX4M~&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkfo3RCuLUmMvXq0Ut3%2FxzTodAG78AJCdUBTGdtIbJfiO2bS%2BMWNjkLDJm%2BQply5RQOIK%2F3G3H%2FHX1fux0DxMMQGaCrU21j346nNDjjNWPrQ9AOCP%2BJGp2dDWVDbAcwvB9LGTLlRYcofJTl1TfhHmjutD7QUjJyGhnPLduXYSyoTlub2EjWLTbZMVVdj2Q7J3C2iQ4UZ2vJbJz8OH4vAGAUlXslq%2Fi%2BWtReJB%2BJy7PVJnx8CtJwAAe2EPBkPKqCNAlks07pI3wyFEGDdlFNEzhrfAmtIsUKvJaLp7Bp7ME8%2Bw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_iLpo39ZA

[Joerg Polzfusz]

Hi!

E.g. Isco produced 1.33x anamorphics for early DLP video projectors (to enlarge 4:3 to 16:9 or 16:9 to 2,36:1 while still using all pixels). They should be large enough for 16mm projectors, too. Their only downside is their price tag (1000-3000€ used, depending on whether the motorized sleigh is included to automatically remove them from the projector when not needed).

When your Kowa has got threads on the rear, you can simply buy a rotatable filter (e.g. polariser), remove the glass and then use it together with some step up/down filter adapters on your camera.

In the „Scope Hype years“ (50s/60s), several camera manufacturers sold anamorphic attachments for their Double8-cameras - as a set: One attachment for the lens and one for the viewfinder. (In other words: Simply attach another anamorphic to your viewfinder if you want to see a desqueezed image.)

[Bill Hunt]

14 hours ago, Geffen Avraham said:

Why don't you use one of the Panavision variable anamorphic projector lenses? They can do any squeeze.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/396015735043?_skw=super+panatar&itmmeta=01JFMD9GQS43MVCG2J0S677YMP&hash=item5c34609103:g:n0cAAOSw2qhnX4M~&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkfo3RCuLUmMvXq0Ut3%2FxzTodAG78AJCdUBTGdtIbJfiO2bS%2BMWNjkLDJm%2BQply5RQOIK%2F3G3H%2FHX1fux0DxMMQGaCrU21j346nNDjjNWPrQ9AOCP%2BJGp2dDWVDbAcwvB9LGTLlRYcofJTl1TfhHmjutD7QUjJyGhnPLduXYSyoTlub2EjWLTbZMVVdj2Q7J3C2iQ4UZ2vJbJz8OH4vAGAUlXslq%2Fi%2BWtReJB%2BJy7PVJnx8CtJwAAe2EPBkPKqCNAlks07pI3wyFEGDdlFNEzhrfAmtIsUKvJaLp7Bp7ME8%2Bw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_iLpo39ZA

They’re quite large…

[Bill Hunt]

1 hour ago, Joerg Polzfusz said:

Hi!

E.g. Isco produced 1.33x anamorphics for early DLP video projectors (to enlarge 4:3 to 16:9 or 16:9 to 2,36:1 while still using all pixels). They should be large enough for 16mm projectors, too. Their only downside is their price tag (1000-3000€ used, depending on whether the motorized sleigh is included to automatically remove them from the projector when not needed).

When your Kowa has got threads on the rear, you can simply buy a rotatable filter (e.g. polariser), remove the glass and then use it together with some step up/down filter adapters on your camera.

In the „Scope Hype years“ (50s/60s), several camera manufacturers sold anamorphic attachments for their Double8-cameras - as a set: One attachment for the lens and one for the viewfinder. (In other words: Simply attach another anamorphic to your viewfinder if you want to see a desqueezed image.)

Thanks for this Joerg, I had wondered about desqueezing the viewfinder image but it’s hard enough to find a simple magnifier for the Bolex 6x.

In anticipation of what otherwise seems to be imminent failure I’m working on my 4:3 framing technique… 

 

[Joerg Polzfusz]

I wonder if anyone ever tried attaching one of those cheap Chinese smartphone anamorphics to the viewfinder. They only come in 1.33x and 1.55x. But the 1.55x is at least wider than the squeezed image. And theoretically, you could even combine the 1.55x with the 1.33x to come close to the required 2x.

(But this sounds more like a DIY project than something for this forum. 😉)

 

BTW: Sometimes you can also find video taps for Bolex/Beaulieu/Fujica 16mm/Super8 cameras on eBay, too. This way, you should be able to use a monitor with desqueezing function…

[Joerg Polzfusz]

That’s one of the sellers that sometimes sells such video assists (at the moment, I only found this Beaulieu):

https://www.ebay.de/itm/167184733263

[Joerg Polzfusz]

https://www.ebay.de/itm/167125561773

That’s one of his video assists for a Bolex…

Edited December 22, 2024 by Joerg Polzfusz

[Bill Hunt]

10 hours ago, Joerg Polzfusz said:

I wonder if anyone ever tried attaching one of those cheap Chinese smartphone anamorphics to the viewfinder. They only come in 1.33x and 1.55x. But the 1.55x is at least wider than the squeezed image. And theoretically, you could even combine the 1.55x with the 1.33x to come close to the required 2x.

(But this sounds more like a DIY project than something for this forum. 😉)

 

BTW: Sometimes you can also find video taps for Bolex/Beaulieu/Fujica 16mm/Super8 cameras on eBay, too. This way, you should be able to use a monitor with desqueezing function…

I have one of these (in a box somewhere) Joerg and although I agree in terms of the DIY nature of such an experiment, it may provide proof (or otherwise) of concept.

I’ll see if I can dig it up.

[Bill Hunt]

10 hours ago, Joerg Polzfusz said:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/167125561773

That’s one of his video assists for a Bolex…

Alas, only for 16x eyepiece.

[Joerg Polzfusz]

There’s also one for the 13x and the 10x eyepiece:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/167125583433?itmmeta=01JFS8RJ2SAQMRHP77DGPE1Q5D&hash=item26e9760649:g:NeQAAOSwwrBnRO2E
 

https://www.ebay.de/itm/167125561773?itmmeta=01JFS8RJ2SMZFG9G5TKYQG2PRK&hash=item26e975b1ad:g:F~4AAOSwnWRnROpq

[Joerg Polzfusz]

When your eyepiece has got the same dimensions (diameter etc.) as the eyepiece of a microscope or telescope, then you can also try to attach your smartphone to your Bolex…

https://www.ebay.de/itm/335509573573

There are tons of these adapters available - cheap „no name“ from several Chinese companies, but also from manufacturers of tele-/microscopes, e.g. Bresser, Kowa, Meopta, … .

BTW: Also check the dimensions of your smartphone - some of these adapters are only suited for very small smartphones.

 

[Bill Hunt]

17 hours ago, Joerg Polzfusz said:

When your eyepiece has got the same dimensions (diameter etc.) as the eyepiece of a microscope or telescope, then you can also try to attach your smartphone to your Bolex…

https://www.ebay.de/itm/335509573573

There are tons of these adapters available - cheap „no name“ from several Chinese companies, but also from manufacturers of tele-/microscopes, e.g. Bresser, Kowa, Meopta, … .

BTW: Also check the dimensions of your smartphone - some of these adapters are only suited for very small smartphones.

 

Thanks again Joerg,

I have a phone adapter that works very well on microscope, but the image on the Bolex is not good.

Luckily there has been a further development…

[Bill Hunt]

Well… I was almost at the point of giving up on the whole anamorphic idea (or at the very least, setting it aside for the time being) when the Kowa anamorphic projection lens arrived in the post.

What a beauty it is—hardly a mark on it, and threaded to screw straight into the existing projector lens… easy.

So, I thought I’d see how 2x squeeze looks through the viewfinder; both lenses set to infinity to save messing around, and… I think it’s doable.

Even just holding the Kowa up to the Switar gave me what I think is a good enough image to focus with, but of course I’ll need adapters etc. to keep everything steady.

I tested with the 10, 25 and 75mm lenses, there was (as you might expect) considerable vignetting with the 10mm, however the other two are perfectly fine.

I won’t be able to get hold of any parts over Christmas, but we’ll see in the new year.

Happy Christmas.

 

[Jon O'Brien]

On 12/21/2024 at 12:11 PM, Giray Izcan said:

Actually I did too hahaha. Sorry I should have read better before getting excited. Happy holidays.

Happy holidays Giray! And everyone else.

 

1 hour ago, Bill Hunt said:

Well… I was almost at the point of giving up on the whole anamorphic idea (or at the very least, setting it aside for the time being) when the Kowa anamorphic projection lens arrived in the post.

What a beauty it is—hardly a mark on it, and threaded to screw straight into the existing projector lens… easy.

So, I thought I’d see how 2x squeeze looks through the viewfinder; both lenses set to infinity to save messing around, and… I think it’s doable.

Even just holding the Kowa up to the Switar gave me what I think is a good enough image to focus with, but of course I’ll need adapters etc. to keep everything steady.

I tested with the 10, 25 and 75mm lenses, there was (as you might expect) considerable vignetting with the 10mm, however the other two are perfectly fine.

I won’t be able to get hold of any parts over Christmas, but we’ll see in the new year.

Happy Christmas.

 

Welcome to cinematography.com, Bill.

Merry Christmas!