RED annonces prices on accessories

[Brian Drysdale]

I could answer on your obsessive quote, saying that your hobby means an average 7.7 posts per day and mine is 0.7 posts per day, which says something. But I did not.

 

Your usual excessive paternalism (do you know me from where by the way?) on a talk almost a year ago says what? What you cannot argue unless subscribing your name without an argument, which means a lot. And I did not take this for granted.

 

I should point out that David's post are across the all the board and not just RED and gives the impression of being passionate (rather than obsessive) about cinematography and film making. If David has excessive paternalism, I feel the world could do with more, because he's prepared to invest time and energy into offering advice to those who ask. I've always found his comments well balanced and considered.

 

Arguments are only worth having if the subject matter is worthy of the argument.

[Patrizio De Sica]

I should point out that David's post are across the all the board and not just RED and gives the impression of being passionate (rather than obsessive) about cinematography and film making. If David has excessive paternalism, I feel the world could do with more, because he's prepared to invest time and energy into offering advice to those who ask. I've always found his comments well balanced and considered.

 

Arguments are only worth having if the subject matter is worthy of the argument.

 

We all know his valuable work. I mentioned more than twice. The "obsession quote" is not mine. I just didn't or don't want to discuss the Nietzsche's Übermensch (the overman / super-human) at least here. Or taken the things too much personally (go ahead on Red). However...

 

I know the Red subject has been neglected but... different people, different needs, different perspectives. Like Kane, sometimes over the same subject. Who knows who does Rosebud mean? :ph34r:

[Chris Kenny]

Since I don't own any cameras, it's hard for me to answer that, but I generally believe that one should not pin one's hopes on a piece of equipment... but develop and rely on your artistic and technical skills to master any equipment. But like I said, I'm not trying to sell myself as an owner-operator, and I live and work in a major rental market.

 

With features and other large and expensive productions, the typical pattern is to retain a producer who assembles a crew for the project and arranges for equipment. If this is the sort of project you usually DP on, you don' t have to worry about supplying the camera; that's the producer's job, and the camera will usually be rented.

 

In the bulk of the video production world, though, it doesn't make sense to assemble a whole structure for each project; the projects aren't big enough to justify it. The typical pattern there is to go to a company which has a pre-existing team, or for small projects, to a freelancer who can handle everything. That company or freelancer is expected to have all the right equipment. If they don't, they often won't even be considered, both because they won't be taken seriously and because clients for projects like this don't want to pay rental house rates for equipment. (Rental house prices tend to be way out of whack for lower end equipment.)

[Stephen Williams]

The typical pattern there is to go to a company which has a pre-existing team, or for small projects, to a freelancer who can handle everything. That company or freelancer is expected to have all the right equipment. If they don't, they often won't even be considered, both because they won't be taken seriously and because clients for projects like this don't want to pay rental house rates for equipment. (Rental house prices tend to be way out of whack for lower end equipment.)

 

Hi Chris,

 

I understand you have never previousely worked in this business!

 

Some freelancers are willing to buy equipment & work for 'free' charging the same price as a rental house for equipment. Thats not a business plan I wish to follow.

 

I often work on projects of 1 day where all the equipment is rented.

 

Last week I shot an industrial film, my fee was more than the cost of buying the camera new! Do you think I could have charged more if I owned the camera?

 

Stephen

[Dan Goulder]

Your question is, I suppose, if the guy with the PD150 has what it takes to move up-market, why hasn't he done so already with an existing camera? It's a little hard to answer that question given that the guy with a PD150 we're all talking about here is entirely hypothetical....

...no more hypothetical than the guy with the RED camera...

[Chris Kenny]

I understand you have never previousely worked in this business!

 

I've been in it long enough to get a sense of the basic structure.

 

I often work on projects of 1 day where all the equipment is rented.

 

This is how it works on higher end projects, yes. Not how it usually works on lower end projects, which make up the bulk of the industry. (Well, the bulk by volume, probably not by revenue.) I'm talking about the people down in the trenches doing weddings, graduations, low-end industrials, etc.

[John Holland]

I have never owned any sort of motion picture camera be it film video HD or what ever and never will , i use my eyes and brain , thats what i have to sell .

[David Mullen ASC]

I understand that as an owner-operator normally shooting video material, you sell yourself along with your package, but again, I worry about someone placing too much emphasis on the equipment part of the equation. I think the RED camera should be a good investment for someone who normally would consider a Varicam, let's say, but you also have to understand the market you are competing in.

 

Some producers are very specific about what format they want the material to be shot on, and telling them about the advantages of the RED camera going to data recorders over a camcorder may not fly with some of them who just want a 720P DVCPRO-HD tape at the end of the day, or a 60i Digital Betacam tape. So if that's not your market as an owner-operator, the EPK/EFP crowd, then what is? Local commercials that may normally be considering shooting in 24P on an SDX900?

 

Because at some point, if it's not local EPK/EFP work you're after, you're really competing for other work that may normally shoot in Super-16 or 24P HDCAM, like low-budget indie features or midrange commercials and music video work. And then you have two problems with the indie feature crowd: one group cares more about your reel and resume than the camera you own, and the other group cares more about getting a free or cheap camera off of some owner than the owner himself.

 

All of this is to say that camera ownership at these cost levels is a serious business decision that should be based on past experience with that market, i.e. you're already getting the work, you know the business climate, you know the sorts of rates you can get, how often you'll be working, and therefore have a good idea of how quickly any new gear will pay for itself. Not to say that you can eliminate all risk, just that you don't want to be irresponsible and plonk down a lot of money as a beginner on equipment and think you'll be off and running as a shooter. Not that I'm suggesting that is true in your case.

 

I actually think the RED camera may prove to be an excellent business decision for many owner-operators because of what it can offer, quality-wise, but it may prove disappointing for any novices and film students who see owning a camera as a ticket to success.

[Ken Willinger]

Some freelancers are willing to buy equipment & work for 'free' charging the same price as a rental house for equipment. Thats not a business plan I wish to follow.

 

Freelancers who work like that will not last very long in the business. I've been freelancing since 1988, an owner/operator. I will work as a DP without my gear at one rate, with my gear at another rate. Never do I give

my gear away for free.

 

Many producers will however rather work with Freelancers than a rental house, because the rental house is totally a la carte. You might get sticks and batteries with the camera...but you don't get monitor, lights, grip and electric etc. They charge extra for all that stuff...including cables! When a producer hires my package it comes inclusive (except for specialty items like HMI, dolly, lipstich cam etc.). This is the way to go when producing smaller projects. Even some larger projects will go this way with the addition of hiring also a grip truck and Gaffer. Still it's going to be less expensive than going through a rental house.

[David Mullen ASC]

Still it's going to be less expensive than going through a rental house.

 

Particularly in cities without a lot of rental houses to provide competition.

[Ken Willinger]

Particularly in cities without a lot of rental houses to provide competition.

 

That's true, however I do know quite a few owner/operators in NYC and LA and they make a fine living even with the existence of many very good rental houses. It's all about finding your niche, networking and providing a great product.

 

But all freelancers are currently in the same boat regarding the constantly fluctuating formats and new aquisition methods available. Everybody wants something different. This period of time has been a real boon to the rental houses because only they can afford to stock everything out there. I can't have every camera (nor would I want them all). But RED is an interesting proposition effectively allowing you to record any format. The question remains how to give it to the client? We are all waiting to see.

[Stephen Williams]

I'm talking about the people down in the trenches doing weddings, graduations, low-end industrials, etc.

 

Hi Chris,

 

Those are the very people I am thinking about. I don't see how they can justify shooting on a RED.

 

FWIW 1 year ago I decided only to use my 35mm film cameras for my own testing or stock shooting. Result I am working with the latest equipment Viper,DigiPrimes,MasterPrimes,Cooke S4's and earning more money! If I was to buy a Red camera I would not let my clients know!

 

Stephen

[Brian Drysdale]

I've been in it long enough to get a sense of the basic structure.

This is how it works on higher end projects, yes. Not how it usually works on lower end projects, which make up the bulk of the industry. (Well, the bulk by volume, probably not by revenue.) I'm talking about the people down in the trenches doing weddings, graduations, low-end industrials, etc.

 

The HDV cameras are excellent for this market.

 

However, the RED like the Digibeta SD cameras (Yes, they do get used on weddings) would only be used at the high end of that market. The economics of the lower end work will continue to demand the use of the lower cost small cameras.

 

How well RED beds in will depend on how well their workflow fits in with the post production people and how widespread the required plug ins etc become.

[Chad Stockfleth]

I have never owned any sort of motion picture camera be it film video HD or what ever and never will , i use my eyes and brain , thats what i have to sell .

 

Here, here! I too have never owned a motion picture camera and yet I have worked with many of them and do so on a daily basis.

 

Why would you spend $25k to shoot weddings when you could spend $10k (HVX) and do the same. As I see it, that is more money in your pocket. Do you really think the average person can tell the difference between 2k and 720p? Do you think they can tell the difference on their SD tv? Rather seems like using a flamethrower to light a cigarette.

 

ps. I hardly think David has to defend himself. He has never been anything less than kind and instructive as far as I've seen.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Chad Stockfleth

[Michael Most]

Why would you spend $25k to shoot weddings when you could spend $10k (HVX) and do the same. As I see it, that is more money in your pocket.

 

Especially after you discover that your clients aren't willing to pay any more for the more expensive gear in the first place.

 

The "lower end" - and I mean price-wise, here - of the market is at that point for a reason. The price points are already established, and are not going to up, regardless of what happens to be in the videographer's hands. If anything, they want it cheaper every year. Would they like better images? Sure. Will they pay for it? Not on your life.

[Chris Kenny]

Those are the very people I am thinking about. I don't see how they can justify shooting on a RED.

 

Well, my point, which I suppose I haven't been making very clearly, is that if these folks buy Red cameras, it's probably because they're hoping to take the model they're used to further up-market. And I think it'll probably work.

 

Picture a little company that basically consists of a DP, but with some infrastructure behind him. That company can provide a camera package cheaper than a rental house could, provide post production services, and also maybe provide other people for the camera crew (a DIT, an operator). And the people at that company are absolute experts at working with the camera and the footage, because the company owns the equipment and they get to work with it all the time.

 

Seems to me like a lot of producers could go for something like that. This sort of model is already pervasive in post -- for many aspects of post, you hire a facility, rather than assembling your own team and renting equipment.

[Mitch Gross]

More likely is that many of these new RED camera owners will be turning to their local rental houses to set up "housekeeping" deals, where the rental house rents the cameras out and then splits the proceeds with the original owner. This business model exists throughout the industry for other types of film & video cameras, so I don't see why not for the RED One.

 

If allit took were the tools, then every shmuck with a pencil would be writing the Great American (or whatever nationality) Novel.

[Stephen Williams]

Picture a little company that basically consists of a DP,

 

Hi Chris,

 

With respect people doing weddings, graduations, low-end industrials are not DP's.

 

Stephen

[Chris Kenny]

With respect people doing weddings, graduations, low-end industrials are not DP's.

 

I agree. If you read my post, I'm talking about taking the sort of structure used to shoot such things (hiring a company with a pre-existing team and equipment rather than assembling a team and renting equipment for each project) and moving it further up-market.

[Stephen Williams]

I agree. If you read my post, I'm talking about taking the sort of structure used to shoot such things (hiring a company with a pre-existing team and equipment rather than assembling a team and renting equipment for each project) and moving it further up-market.

 

Hi Chris,

 

Sorry I assumed your posts were in some way linked to what I was saying as you quoted me.

 

Stephen

[John Holland]

this thread has been going for ages , cant stand it any more its announces , not as above . :D

[Chris Kenny]

Sorry I assumed your posts were in some way linked to what I was saying as you quoted me.

 

They were linked, in the sense that I think some of the people (or, rather, companies) buying Red are trying to move up-market using the sort of structure I described, and see Red as being an important part of this.

[Stephen Williams]

They were linked, in the sense that I think some of the people (or, rather, companies) buying Red are trying to move up-market using the sort of structure I described, and see Red as being an important part of this.

 

Hi Chris,

 

With nearly 1500 Red cameras reserved I think people will need a unique selling point. If those companies got a good Director and sold his talent, then IMHO they would have a better chance to go upmarket.

 

I am sure there will be many Red cameras for sale 1 year from now at well below their original cost price.

 

Stephen

[Ken Cangi]

I have to hand it to Jannard. He is one tenacious marketer , by planting guys like Chris Kenny. Chris has been over here since September of 06. He has posted 167 times - 162 of which were to RED forums. No working cameraman would be that excited about a piece of equipment that hasn't even passed its developmental stages yet. In fact, I don't know a single indie filmmaker who is in a position to fork over an amount of money equal to the budget of many small indie films, let alone have the time to post as relentlessly as Mr. Kenny has in such a short period of time. Even a rich hobbyist wouldn't waste his time posting almost 200 sycophantic Red posts to a site, whose members clearly aren't impressed by the hype.

 

Yes sir. The only logical answer is Red marketing-plants, and they have conveniently been bombarding this site like mosquitoes for the several weeks preceding NAB.

 

You're not fooling me, Jim. You didn't get to be the king of eyewear by accident. I am impressed with your tenacity, although I have to wonder how many sales you actually think you can make from this site.

 

It is quite a show, to say the least.

[John Holland]

Ken you are so correct , its a shame anyone even bothers to reply to any of his posts .