david romberg Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 I was bidding on this camera about two weeks ago and even though I was the high bidder, the reserve price was not met. The seller contacted me yesterday and offered the camera at my last bid :) Anyway, I would like to get as much information on the camera and was is included. I know its an M4 but I'm new to 16mm and need more info. Here it is my new bolex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory Breaux DP Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 Dunno why not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Mulder Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 well, it looks like a real train spotters package - like a nerd from back in the day - check out all those filters! Probably quite clean and working well - please emphasize the probably I have no idea what a "split image range finder viewer" is in terms of the image you get - (talking about the dog leg from the lens)... Is that someones unfortunate attempt at describing reflex ? In any case it wouldn't technically be a reflex (theres no moving mirror function... not even in the real reflex bolexes) I find with Bolexes and any camera really that any ol' clunker can suit an application if its spec'd right (often the cost is the most important spec) - horses for courses etc... so perhaps you could tell us more about what you want to use it for ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Alvin Ekarma Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 I was bidding on this camera about two weeks ago and even though I was the high bidder, the reserve price was not met. The seller contacted me yesterday and offered the camera at my last bid :) Anyway, I would like to get as much information on the camera and was is included. I know its an M4 but I'm new to 16mm and need more info. It doesn't have a reflex viewfinder that isn't part of the zoom lens so you'd be stuck w/ old glass and since it's one of the older Bolex models, future modification to S16 could be a hassle. I'd say wait for a rex4/rex5 or ideally an SBM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Mulder Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 It doesn't have a reflex viewfinder that isn't part of the zoom lens so you'd be stuck w/ old glass and since it's one of the older Bolex models, future modification to S16 could be a hassle. I'd say wait for a rex4/rex5 or ideally an SBM. Older bolex models ? It has the 1:1 shaft so its basically an RX4 minus the finder and a different lens housing/shutter assembly - in fact I reckon with a mill and a good file you could have it super16 from start to finish within 2 hours tops... thats milling/filing the gate - filing the rollers and re-centering the lens then re-assembling the shutter in time with the claw - Hopefully that lens mount is somehow independent of the shutter assembly as slotting the whole assembly moves the shutters shaft too far and the helical gear starts rolling up the camera sides equivalent mating gear (where it hasnt been fully cut in that um 'zone') ... Thing is you then have the nasty lens to widen and centre the finder mask for - could be easy... not sure - but yes you are stuck with parallax viewers or dog-leg style lenses - poo poo! unless you have a specific purpose for it and these limitations are worth the price difference between it and a 'newer' reflex ... IF super16 is your thing and you have the cash - get an SB or an SBM - they are a bit more work in super16'ing but give the most usable resulting camera of all the wind up models ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tim Carroll Posted April 6, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 6, 2007 I was bidding on this camera about two weeks ago and even though I was the high bidder, the reserve price was not met. The seller contacted me yesterday and offered the camera at my last bid :) Anyway, I would like to get as much information on the camera and was is included. I know its an M4 but I'm new to 16mm and need more info. Here it is my new bolex David, Be very careful about the auction. There is a regular scam running on eBay that is exactly what you described. A person (maybe legitimate) puts a camera up for auction with a reserve. The auction never gets to the reserve price. Then a few days later, everyone who bid on the auction is offered a chance to buy the camera for their top bid. The whole thing is a scam. The first person may never have had a camera to auction, they are trolling for user ID's, or the second person who sends you the offer to buy the camera for your highest bid, is not the person selling the camera, he/she just got your eBay ID from the auction and is now offering the camera (which he/she does not have) to everyone who bid, hoping that some of you will send them money. It is a very old and very common scam. Also, the auction you linked to is a Buy-It-Now auction, and someone supposedly bought it. -Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david romberg Posted April 6, 2007 Author Share Posted April 6, 2007 The buy it now link was actually the second chance offer he sent me through ebay so I hope its legit... meaning I already sent him money through papal. so far everything looks legit.. matching emails, matching paypal account, etc. This is my first venture from video into film and the rex packages were easily going over $1000, so I thought this was a good starting point. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I am shooting a documentary in 24p and I want to integrate some 16mm. To nick: I am working in sd video so do you still think I should try modifying to super 16? As far as lenses with the m4, I understand that the lack of a reflex means I am limited to lenses with a viewfinder. Are there any other lenses I should be looking for and is there a way to bypass this limitation? What else do I need before I start shooting (Except for film of course) that would be useful? Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Marks Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 I have an M4 set-up identical to this one. This is a very robust camera with essentially the latest mechanicals (like the Rex 4 and 5, and SB/SBM) but obviously with no built-in reflex finder. Because it has the 1:1 shaft, it is capable of accepting all the latest and best (i.e., Tobin) motors, and it can be modified for Super 16. The lens is quite old in terms of design, and will never provide the kind of optical performance you would get with a modern Zeiss or Canon zoom, but if you stop down a bit from the maximum aperture, you might be pleasantly surprised. The lens is usually described as having a maximum aperture of f2.0, but it only delivers t2.77 to the film at maximum aperture.... fortunately it is marked in t-stops as well as f-stops so this is not a huge problem. The "split image" finder is pretty unique... you zoom to the maximum focal length to minimize depth of field, and you will see a split image effect - a kind of ghosting around the edges of things. Bring these two together to focus, and then zoom out to compose your shot. The finder's image is impressively bright, and it stays bright even as you stop down because the finder takes its light before the aperture (something like a Super-8 camera). One significant drawback to the lens is that it doesn't zoom out to a usable wide angle (17mm is more like a "normal" to me). Believe me, once you have this lens on your Bolex, you will not want to be switching between it and a wider lens.... it's best left on the camera all the time. Whether this camera is a good deal for you is something you'll have to decide for yourself. I've been very lucky and paid very little for mine. A Rex 4/5 - or better yet an SBM or an EBM - are a lot more flexible, but more money too. And you can make the argument that those cameras aren't as good as the Arris and Aatons.... after a while the simplicity of the M4 and its low buy-in start to seem pretty appealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Mulder Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 To nick:I am working in sd video so do you still think I should try modifying to super 16? As far as lenses with the m4, I understand that the lack of a reflex means I am limited to lenses with a viewfinder. Are there any other lenses I should be looking for and is there a way to bypass this limitation? What else do I need before I start shooting (Except for film of course) that would be useful? Thank you Well, if you aren't cropping your SD then you dont need super16 - and if you don't need it, you dont need it ... But if you do decide and are handy with tooling drop me a PM and maybe I can give you some advice. I'm thinking of getting one of those security style Bolexes (like an M Bolex but without the spring etc...) - it has the same mount so hopefully I'll be sure of how easy it is... Asfor the the lens the only other option is to get a bunch of primes, tape measure and a parallax viewer to suit (non-reflex) - Ian is the best person to talk to about this though as he has the same setup and knows its highlights and bad points much better than I ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Knowles Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 Be very careful about the auction. There is a regular scam running on eBay that is exactly what you described. I whole-heartedly agree. Many people have been burned like this. To be safe, I'd ask the seller to put it back on eBay with a Buy-it-Now. Otherwise, you have no protection or recourse if it's scam. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Will Montgomery Posted April 6, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 6, 2007 I whole-heartedly agree. Many people have been burned like this. To be safe, I'd ask the seller to put it back on eBay with a Buy-it-Now. Otherwise, you have no protection or recourse if it's scam. Good luck. EEEEEEKKKKK!!! Be EXTREMELY CAREFUL. People have been doing these "2nd Chance" offers to scam you big time. I've had this happen THREE TIMES and they were all NOT LEGIT. I don't know why movie camera equipment seems to be a big target of scam artists but it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Alvin Ekarma Posted April 6, 2007 Share Posted April 6, 2007 Older bolex models ? It has the 1:1 shaft so its basically an RX4 minus the finder and a different lens housing/shutter assembly - in fact I reckon with a mill and a good file you could have it super16 from start to finish within 2 hours tops... thats milling/filing the gate - filing the rollers and re-centering the lens then re-assembling the shutter in time with the claw - Hopefully that lens mount is somehow independent of the shutter assembly as slotting the whole assembly moves the shutters shaft too far and the helical gear starts rolling up the camera sides equivalent mating gear (where it hasnt been fully cut in that um 'zone') ... I'm referring to the price quotes given by JK camera. For an s16 mod, it's a couple hundred bucks extra for a Rex 4/Rex 5 which can include optional 13x viewfinder conversion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Mulder Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 I'm referring to the price quotes given by JK camera. For an s16 mod, it's a couple hundred bucks extra for a Rex 4/Rex 5 which can include optional 13x viewfinder conversion... RX4 and RX5 probably cost more because of the turret system - and the 13x finder addition as you have mentioned - but the M has neither of these to worry about ... If you have the right tools the gate and rollers are really a no brainer in how to modify it - the lens re-centre can be a little more work conceptually and you really need the 13x finder - hence the $$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Tisdale Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 (edited) I have no idea what a "split image range finder viewer" is in terms of the image you get - (talking about the dog leg from the lens)... Is that someones unfortunate attempt at describing reflex ? In any case it wouldn't technically be a reflex (theres no moving mirror function... not even in the real reflex bolexes) A split image rangefinder literally splits the image along a diagonal line (or horizontal line in some still cameras); the image in the viewfinder is brought into focus by adjusting the focus ring until the two halves align. There's also a coincident image rangefinder; these give an effect of "double vision" where adjusting the focus ring aligns the two. David, The H-16 M-4 shown in the auction is a good camera. The lens is okay and I actually find that viewfinder easier to see through than the reflex viewfinder on H16 reflex cameras (to my poor eyesight at least). You can also use all C mount prime lens with it, but if you do, you'll have to use a parallax viewfinder on the side of the camera. I may have missed it, but I didn't see one shown in the auction. You can pick one up on eBay for about $10 though. (look for an "octameter" or "preview finder") Edited April 7, 2007 by Michael Tisdale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david romberg Posted April 16, 2007 Author Share Posted April 16, 2007 Received my camera a few days ago and it looks like its almost in new condition. I will shoot some tests soon. Thanks for all the help. Included was two unopened tri-x reversal film marked with the expiration date 1967. I'm guessing this film cannot be used even for tests....right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Mulder Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 If they have been stored ok (not under the back window of a car for 40 years) you should get an image - might be a bit foggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Marks Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 Congratulations. You can always use that old roll to practice loading, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david romberg Posted April 17, 2007 Author Share Posted April 17, 2007 Congratulations. You can always use that old roll to practice loading, too. so maybe I'll use that old film for my test roll... Ian or Nick, can you walk me through the basics of loading my first roll and shooting my first roll? I wanted to shoot a test classic perspective panning shot of a train going by at the station. Think Lumiere with a pan as the train goes by. Also, the camera came with a nice German made lightmeter, but it needs a new battery. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Mulder Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 okidoki, The film - is it on 400' cores (in a metal cannister that says 'open only in complete darkness' or similar) or are they already on a daylight load reels (smaller reels usually in cardboard boxes with another cannister inside that looks about the size of what you'd put in your Bolex) ? Do you have an empty daylight reel ? (hopefully one came in the camera) In the end you need at least 1 loaded daylight reel and one empty one - the loaded one will need to be emulsion in with the sprockets on the lower side when the film spirals out from the right (clockwise so to speak)... I'll stop here until you answer the question - if you have 400 cores then there is another whole palaver to go about to load the daylight reel - oh the joys of starting out ! "you mean I need to spend another $100 ?" "wha?!?!" (its much easier with the right gear, but not impossible without) How are you going to develop this film ? If you are paying a lab you might want to have it wedge tested beforehand so you dont waste you $$$ on a full load - they take a small snip and dev it and can test the fogging... If you have a darkroom (or a room that is dark at night) and have done some still developing and/or keen to learn you could fashion a neat developing bucket to save on money again - terrible results, but fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david romberg Posted April 17, 2007 Author Share Posted April 17, 2007 okidoki, I'm almost 100% its daylight load reels and it says on the box of the film "load in subdued light". the camera came with two empty daylight reels and one smaller reel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Charles MacDonald Posted April 17, 2007 Premium Member Share Posted April 17, 2007 Received my camera a few days ago and it looks like its almost in new condition. I will shoot some tests soon.Thanks for all the help. Included was two unopened tri-x reversal film marked with the expiration date 1967. I'm guessing this film cannot be used even for tests....right? 10 year old film kept cool may work well. 20year old film will be funky, (and if suficently overexposed can look like interior shots at chernobyl) 40 year old film, would be of interest to camera antique hunters. It might to fun to try and develop a clip to see if the edge printing is still readable I would not expct too much. If you want to try use a setting of about 50 ASA on your meter. As long as it does not smell of VInigar, it would be at least useful as "light struck leader" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Mulder Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 cool about the reels - saves the mission of finding some ... Sorry bout the delay - You've probably sorted it out anyway ? Anyways - here's a quick description: In 'subdued light' open one of your daylight loads and have a sniff - 'Moody' light will do in a pinch. Next pull out about a foot and a half of film with the film trailing out of the right hand side (the sprockets should be on bottom if its single sprocket/magstripe film) - snip the end to the correct angle using the little springy-snippy-snipper-thingy at the bottom of your bolex (open it and you'll see it) - cut with the film parallel to the wall and the eventual cut should be in between sprockets and longer/pointier on the sprocket side... Wind up yer Bolex a little and set it on slow speed (for beginners) - now flip it over again and get ready for business - ah, yes hold yer horses and pull out the pressure plate (pull pin thingy out of hole and then unscrew the other end) - check the gate, blast some canned air around it for excellentness, dont be too bummed its not super16, its not the size, its what you do with it - now check your pressure plate - it acts kinda like an odometer, if its still all black your camera hasn't had too much film through it - so, rub your nose with your finger until its good and greasy and rub it on the smooth side of the pressure plate - yep, nose grease yer pressure plate - some folk have been seen to directly rub the pressure plate on their nose thereby cutting down on the middle man but that can lead to One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest screenplays - Put it back in ... See that little ding-a-ling lever atop the roller housing mechanism flim-flam ? move it and you should see the roundy-woundy guide butter-flappers close in on the gate - thats what we want.. Do it ... Put on The Zombies 'You Make Me Feel Good' - its relevant thats I'll say Run the camera for sec - see the top roller and how at the bottom of if you think "shitstix, I wouldn't want to put my greasy mitts in there!" - thats where we want to put the film... This bit is hard to explain, just give it a go - stick the film in there (the load you should be able to hold in your hand at the same time) - run the camera - yeehaw! it going in - its making horrible noises ! poop ! - now its popping out the other end ! shivers ! Stop Now there is a little nubbin-button on top of the ding-a-ling lever on top the roller housing mechanism flim-flam that moves the roundy-woundy guide butter-flappers... Push it The roundy-woundy guide butter-flappers should click away into storage position 2H Almost finished! Put the load into the top position and click it in place ... Run the camera again until you have enough film to get it nice'n'tight around the empty spool. Get it nice'n'tight around the empty spool. (Follow the white lines with your nose and it'll all become clear) Put the spool in place in the lower position thingy and click it in place ... Run the camera at 32fps for a short short burst to see it going and make sure its not going to fudge up your marriage proposal Close the film door - run it until the counter is at zero and you should be running film that hasn't been exposed by at least 2 feet - even better load in complete darkness and forget this step and gain an extra 4 or 5 feet Shoot amazing film post it here and get bagged Notes: DONT FORCE ANYTHING - the bolex has a few fail-safe features like the pressure pad thingy wont let you close the door if its not in place but this CAN be forced - ruining your load, and your camera ... Better to wait and ask here whats going wrong than attempting to make it worse - your nose might need an adjustment or two have fun, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean McHenry Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 All in all an excellent "article" on loading a Bolex. Reminds me of the Mackie audio mixer manuals with the touches of fun in it. As a first time Ebay Bolex buyer myself of a week ago (bought a 1956 non-reflex in decent shape with Pan-Cinor 70 and the usual suspects of three primes as well.) Seemed like a good deal at the time. While showing off the new beast around the post production facility where I work, one of the guys here had "rescued" some forgotten 16mm stock from a shoot a few years back and offered me a 400' roll to play with. He eventually said I should just take it all. Seven 400' rolls. A mix of 100T, 200T, 320T. That's like 28 100' loads. Jackpot. Caveat being that he can't guarantee it's worth but it had been on ice most of it's life so maybe there's an image or two hiding in there someplace I can squeak out of it. Camera is running nice. The Octameter viewfinder had taken a fall at some time and the levers were hitting the little block that holds the mount on in the front. A careful set of tape covered needle nose pliers and 15 minutes got that right again. The Pan-Cinor 70 is a piece of work too. Sadly the prism seems to be out of position as I am getting the right side of the frame cut off and there is a corner missing on the upper left of the image too. I sent a note to Bernie at Super16Inc to see if he can tackle that issue. The lens is very smooth and tight so it might be worth putting a few dollars into? Anyway, thanks for the fun write-up on loading. I'll be trying this one out soon enough. Sure looks like a real camera. Sean McHenry New 16mm shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Montes Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Wind up yer Bolex a little and set it on slow speed (for beginners) - now flip it over again and get ready for business - ah, yes hold yer horses and pull out the pressure plate (pull pin thingy out of hole and then unscrew the other end) - check the gate, blast some canned air around it for excellentness, dont be too bummed its not super16, its not the size, its what you do with it - now check your pressure plate - it acts kinda like an odometer, if its still all black your camera hasn't had too much film through it - so, rub your nose with your finger until its good and greasy and rub it on the smooth side of the pressure plate - yep, nose grease yer pressure plate - some folk have been seen to directly rub the pressure plate on their nose thereby cutting down on the middle man but that can lead to One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest screenplays - I do not recommend using compressed air inside of a camera especially around the gate. It could blow some debris into the mechanism and cause problems. Always use a soft brush to remove particles and a soft orangewood stick to clean the gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Mulder Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 I do not recommend using compressed air inside of a camera especially around the gate. It could blow some debris into the mechanism and cause problems. Always use a soft brush to remove particles and a soft orangewood stick to clean the gate. Yeh, thats one theory and I'm sure it works - and yes the gate area has access in a roundabout way to all the internals, but the amount of crud we are talking about is very minimal compared to the things that have turned up on shot that can get in via other methods, like around the interface, filter slot, variable shutter and through an open lens front/prism anyway ... Sand, dust clouds of all varieties, rain, food and combinations thereof have plastered my cameras - a good clean/lube of the internals once a year and its a happy thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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