Lighting with red marine safety flares

[Rolfe Klement]

We have a scene coming up where we are going to have a red marine saftey flare used.

 

We will be filming on 35mm with 18.

 

I have seen that they produce loads of smoke and it seems a good idea to move the flare around.

 

 

Any advice or recomendations?

What stop?

Better with smaller shutter?

 

thanks

 

Rolfe

[Jonathan Bowerbank]

Depends on how close to your actor's faces they're going to be and how they're going to be used.

 

The film "Kontroll" has a gorgeous road flare scene where a girl leads a man down a subway tunnel, with the flare being the only lightsource.

[timHealy]

I believe the English Patient used actual flares for the scene where Juliettte Binoche gets lifted in the air by her Indian lover to view fresco's. Gorgeous scene.

 

I see if I can find out something from Mo Flam for you.

 

Best

 

Tim

[Paul Nordin]

We have a scene coming up where we are going to have a red marine saftey flare used.

 

We will be filming on 35mm with 18.

 

I have seen that they produce loads of smoke and it seems a good idea to move the flare around.

Any advice or recomendations?

What stop?

Better with smaller shutter?

 

Hi Rolfe,

I'm not sure why you think a smaller shutter angle would help with using a flare as your source. Certainly having the talent keep the flare a consistent distance from their face would be important. I've not tried to use flares myself so can't provide any first hand advice. However, there was a film called "The Descent" which came out last year that was written up in AC. The DP use practical flares held by the talent as they moved through the caves, and after a bit of trying ended up using red-gelled lights. I can't remember the exact reason for that (smoke build up was at least a part) but you might try to find that article for more info.

Cheers,

Paul

[Tim O'Connor]

I would add that, at least the last time I used red road flares (many years ago) I found that

those things aren't easy to extinguish. Threw them in water, they burned. Stuck them in the

dirt, pulled them out...still going. Whatever tests you do for shooting, I would recommend you

do a safety test too to make sure you know what it takes if you have to extinguish them quickly.

[timHealy]

So I emailed Mo and I had it wrong (it won't be the last time). It sounds like they came to the conclusion that using real flares was too dangerous and utilized a very bright light and added lots of smoke to sell it. He did not specify what kind of light or bulb that was used as they built something for the gag.

 

Becasue of the safety issues, I agree with above that you may want to do a very comprehesive test and perhaps test something that one can build.

 

Best

 

Tim

[Bobby Shore]

I shot a film (35mm) using red road flares a few years ago. I was able to test it before hand, and to my taste, I liked underexposing the key provided by the flare on the actors face by a stop or stop and a half (depending on how close or far the actor held it, it varied).... I found it helped the flare from overexposing too much (although it was over, you could still see red color detail in the flare itself). The fall off was pretty rapid though (anything outside of a 5-7 foot radius around the flare wasn't able to hold any real detail), so if you're interested in seeing any of the surroundings, you might want to augment with some more light. I bounced an open face 2 K gelled with primary red into 4 by beadboard (it read 2 - 3 stops under for the BG), and matched really well. By the way, stock was 5218. Good luck...

 

Bobby Shore

DP

LA/Montreal

[Jonathan Bowerbank]

It sounds like they came to the conclusion that using real flares was too dangerous and utilized a very bright light and added lots of smoke to sell it.

 

I'm just curious why they determined they were too dangerous. Sure, they're open flames, but they're slow burning and safe for "your average joe who has to change his tire on the side of the road".

[timHealy]

I'm just curious why they determined they were too dangerous. Sure, they're open flames, but they're slow burning and safe for "your average joe who has to change his tire on the side of the road".

 

Would you like to be the one to tell Juliette Binoche that the she shouldn't worry about scalding herself or breathing in poisonous life threatening fumes?

 

Best

 

Tim

Edited September 10, 2007 by timHealy

[Jonathan Bowerbank]

Would you like to be the one to tell Juliette Binoche that the she shouldn't worry about scalding herself or breathing in poisonous life threatening fumes?

 

Yes please!

[robert duke]

As a young adventerous boy I used a road flare in a cave. I tried holding it above my head so I could see up a shaft. A small molten piece of metal dripped from the flare onto my forehead. I still carry the scar today some 22 years later. If it had been my eye... That is why flares are dangerous. If you do it I recommend gloves. And dont hold it above your body, head, etc. also be aware of flammables. Hairspray, grass, lens cleaners, oils, etc.

 

I think it looks cool, but maybe have the prop guys build you a rig using a modified xenon flashlight that is gelled red.

[timHealy]

As a young adventerous boy I used a road flare in a cave. I tried holding it above my head so I could see up a shaft. A small molten piece of metal dripped from the flare onto my forehead. I still carry the scar today some 22 years later. If it had been my eye... That is why flares are dangerous. If you do it I recommend gloves. And dont hold it above your body, head, etc. also be aware of flammables. Hairspray, grass, lens cleaners, oils, etc.

 

I think it looks cool, but maybe have the prop guys build you a rig using a modified xenon flashlight that is gelled red.

 

 

Perfect example that producers don't like to do things like this or many stunts with stars and celebrities.

 

Be safe. It is only a movie. no one needs to get hurt.

 

Best

 

Tim

[Robert Hughes]

Road flares use similar technology to fireworks and should be handled with appropriate care. Handholding a flare sounds dangerous and unnecessary.

[Rolfe Klement]

thanks for the replies.

• So it sounds like T5.6 | T8
  
• Keep the flare handheld as far away as possible from the face to reduce rapid falloff
  
• Crank shutter to highlight smoke definition
  
• Move the flare (or person) to reduce smoke build up (and therefore reduction in visibility)
  
• Make sure crew and cast understand extinguishing method
  

Marine distress flares are designed to be handheld by their nature

 

thanks

 

Rolfe

[Can Sahinian]

I have an off-shoot of this question. We are also shooting a scene with flares, however our scene involves the flying flares used for illumination. Does anyone know how to replicate that sort of lighting? The idea we want to hit is that the flares light up shadows and the forrest for 30 second periods.

 

thanks for your help

 

E.

[Bobby Shore]

thanks for the replies.

• So it sounds like T5.6 | T8
  
• Keep the flare handheld as far away as possible from the face to reduce rapid falloff
  
• Crank shutter to highlight smoke definition
  
• Move the flare (or person) to reduce smoke build up (and therefore reduction in visibility)
  
• Make sure crew and cast understand extinguishing method
  

Marine distress flares are designed to be handheld by their nature

 

thanks

 

Rolfe

 

Hey Rolfe,

 

I shot the same deal with 5218 (I posted earlier with more detail), and my shooting stop was a 2.8 and a bump on cooke s4's... sounds like 5.6/8 split might be a bit heavy on the barrel unless you'll be doing a lot of your own augmentation with hot lights. Also, I still don't really get how adjusting the shutter angle would highlight the smoke definition... do you know something I don't? Thanks man, good luck.

 

Bobby Shore

DP

LA/Montreal

[robert duke]

The flare in the woods idea is one I have done. Check out www.likemoleslikerats.com I did it usig a 12k par no lens, pointed at a 4x of mylar that was shaken and panned around slightly. It gave a cool dancing light effect as if the flare was travelling. the 4x was top stick on a mombo combo.

[Douglas Sunlin]

Ironic that they should be called safety flares. They are meant to be left on a patch of pavement and left alone until they burn out by themselves.

[Kieran Scannell]

The 4x was top stick on a mombo combo.

 

That's the best sentence I've read in years!

 

I love this forum!

 

Kieran.

[Matthew Parnell]

I have an off-shoot of this question. We are also shooting a scene with flares, however our scene involves the flying flares used for illumination. Does anyone know how to replicate that sort of lighting? The idea we want to hit is that the flares light up shadows and the forrest for 30 second periods.

 

thanks for your help

 

E.

 

 

Unfortunately i dont have any pictures, but i recently worked a week of dailies on an american wartime series over here in OZ. The scenes that we were shooting did this exact effect. The rig is probably a severly out of your budget range, but i thought it would be interesting anyway. Rigged either side of the set there was a couple scaff towers one about 120ft scaff tower with two high tension cables running about 300ft to the other, a 10ft scaff tower. On the cables ran a sled that had a lamp underslung. The lamp was custom made lamp and consisted of 16 blondie lamp holders loaded with 2k lamps. Basically tensions was released to the sled and it powered down the cable, a dimmer operator controlled the intensity of the light to simulate the flying flare.

 

I can imagine you could get a grip to build something like this on a much smaller managable and cheaper scale. The man hours that went into building this particular flare rig were incredible.

[Adamo P Cultraro]

Should also add that setting of a marine style flare near a body of water requires you to contact the coast guard and let them know a "flare test" is in progress. Or else it will be all over channel 16 VHF and someone will show up pissed thinking someone is in distress.

[Chris Schlaghecke]

Unfortunately i dont have any pictures, but i recently worked a week of dailies on an american wartime series over here in OZ. The scenes that we were shooting did this exact effect. The rig is probably a severly out of your budget range, but i thought it would be interesting anyway. Rigged either side of the set there was a couple scaff towers one about 120ft scaff tower with two high tension cables running about 300ft to the other, a 10ft scaff tower. On the cables ran a sled that had a lamp underslung. The lamp was custom made lamp and consisted of 16 blondie lamp holders loaded with 2k lamps. Basically tensions was released to the sled and it powered down the cable, a dimmer operator controlled the intensity of the light to simulate the flying flare.

 

I can imagine you could get a grip to build something like this on a much smaller managable and cheaper scale. The man hours that went into building this particular flare rig were incredible.

 

Hi Matthew, sounds like a massive rigging job for that effect! Is that the production in FNQ that moves down south at the end of November? If so then I am working on the same thing. The studio and location setup down here is Massive!

Cheers

Chris

[Matthew Parnell]

Im guessing were talking about the same thing Chris ;) Im based in Brisbane.

Its definitely big rig central, some very cool stuff, very different to the TVCs and MVs i'm used to working on up here. Its just a downer that they're working french hours.

Cheers,

Matt

[Rolfe Klement]

So I went and bought some to test with.

 

I decided I prefered the white "Collision warn off" flares - since the red ones make everything red...

 

They come in packs of three and burn for about 60 seconds each.

 

They are pretty simple to use.

• I get an exposure of T11 to T11.5 at 2m away for 500T at 25fps on a 165' shutter. The light is fairly constant until it starts to splutter at about 60 sec (Hits T8 for about 10 sec then dies rapidly)
  
• They are really bright - if you look into the flare when it is going off - you will have probelms seeing much else
  
• By design the burn material is encased in some cermaic type tube (at least the Ikaros ones I used were)
  
• This ceramic tube gets really really hot (and I mean really hot) and melts everything for about 10min after
  
• The flare produces a large amount of smoke
  
• The flare flame is about 20 to 50cm long at any time
  
• The flare spews out a white powder that is not hot to the touch but I would not recommend being under it - in the same way you would not want to be under sand pouring down.
  
• About halfway through the paper casing catches fire but your hand is OK since the plastic handle is seperated
  
• I tried spinning at speed holding a flare and towards the end of the burn you need to be careful since the ceramic tube can come out and fly off - so basically try keep the flare fairly static after the half way point
  

So those are the lessons learned from some quick tests

 

thanks

 

Rolfe

[Walter Graff]

I'm just curious why they determined they were too dangerous. Sure, they're open flames, but they're slow burning and safe for "your average joe who has to change his tire on the side of the road".

 

 

While I don't think he is referring to what I speak, in fact flares produce highly toxic smoke. One should definitely not want to breath this smoke as it contains numerous toxic chemicals that affect thyroid function, can cause lung damage and nervous system damage, and are considered carcinogenic. Definitely not something you want to use on a set unless all crew and talent is properly masked and protected.