where to place the focus when u have wide angle

[Jim Nelson]

Hi,

 

Can someone please help me out?

 

When you have a wide angle, does it really matter where you place the focus, since everything is in focus anyway?

 

And if it does matter, where should you place it?

 

 

Thanks

[Chris Keth]

Hi,

 

Can someone please help me out?

 

When you have a wide angle, does it really matter where you place the focus, since everything is in focus anyway?

 

And if it does matter, where should you place it?

 

 

Thanks

 

Be careful with that statement. Everything is not necessarily in focus just because you're wide.

 

If your lenses don't breath noticeably, I'd say keep focus with the action and make totally sure it's perfect. If your lenses breath a lot, you may find that hyperfocal or a split is the place to be.

 

Remember that ultimately it's the DP's decision, so just ask when you don't know something like that.

[Jim Nelson]

But what if you use a wide angle lens and the subject moves and changes distances? I know that you don't have to change the focus as long as he's in the depth of field. So where is the best place to set the focus?

 

What I mean is: should you set the focus at the beginning of the action or the middle, or in the end?

[David Mullen ASC]

Common practice is to still follow focus (change focus) with the movement of the subject (if that's what you decide to focus on), even though with the deeper depth of field of the wider-angle wide shot, it may be less critical so you don't have to be as precise unless the subjects gets close to the lens.

 

If you absolutely can't follow focus for some reason, then you'd use a depth of field chart to determine where to set the focus to hold the nearest and farthest points that you want to appear sharp. But that's assuming you have enough depth of field to hold that distance range, and that depends on a lot of things, particularly what f-stop you are at.

 

Now if the shot is very wide and wide-angle and the lens breathes a lot when pulling focus (appears to be zooming slightly) then you may decide it is better to leave the focus somewhere because the benefits of following the focus are not as visible as the problem from the breathing.

[Chris Keth]

What I mean is: should you set the focus at the beginning of the action or the middle, or in the end?

 

Yes. ;)

 

You want the entire action to be in focus, unless you're asked to do otherwise. My post before was about ways you can do that. As David says, most time you pull just the same as any other shot. The real exception to that is if your lenses breath noticeably and pulling focus would be distracting. That is when you might use hyperfocal distance or try to cover it with set focus and enough depth of field.

 

If you need any clarification on how to do some of these things, like find hyperfocal distance, search this forum and you'll find a dozen or more threads about most every subject that would concern an AC.

[Jamie Metzger]

A MV I was on recently, had me on a 6mm (at 2k, or 16mm) at a 5.6 if I'm correct. We were on a 4' jib moving the entire reach back and forth. I checked the DOF charts and I saw that if I focused at 4', I'd have Acceptable focus from 2.5' - infinity. These are rough #'s as I'm trying to remember, but you get the point.

[David Rakoczy]

I like to work with ACs who have the attitude that you are either spot on.. or off.. when it comes to focus... and to continually pull focus no matter what the lens... the only exception is (if) we are on a lens that breathes badly and we can indeed set and hold focus for the shot and let it just sit there... that, however, has not (yet) happened because we use good Glass... so we always pull focus... always.

[Tom Jensen]

I like to work with ACs who have the attitude that you are either spot on.. or off.. when it comes to focus... and to continually pull focus no matter what the lens... the only exception is (if) we are on a lens that breathes badly and we can indeed set and hold focus for the shot and let it just sit there... that, however, has not (yet) happened because we use good Glass... so we always pull focus... always.

 

Sharp focus is sharp focus. If it's sharp, it is spot on. It would depend on the shot but there are a lot of time where you lock off a camera and leave it. It doesn't make any sense to pull focus on every shot when there is often no need and it could work to your detriment.

[David Rakoczy]

Sharp focus is sharp focus. If it's sharp, it is spot on. It would depend on the shot but there are a lot of time where you lock off a camera and leave it. It doesn't make any sense to pull focus on every shot when there is often no need and it could work to your detriment - Tom Jenson

 

I don't know any professional Cinematographer who would not fire their AC if the Talent was at 6ft and they saw 4ft on the barrel... and the AC said 'don't worry, it will hold them' :o .. even if it did... are you crazy?.... Maybe that is the way you run your Camera Dept... it certainly isn't the way I run mine... and pulling focus to the detriment.. huh? Other than the example(s) Mr. Mullin, Keth and I gave, there is no logical reason not to have the focus set and adjust with the Subject... unless de-focus or throwing focus more fore or aft of your Subject is what you are after.

 

If your lenses don't breath noticeably, I'd say keep focus with the action and make totally sure it's perfect. - Chris Keth

 

I'll take a Mr. Keth any day! He is 'spot on'!

[Tom Jensen]

Wrong. I don't know any professional Cinematographer who would not fire their AC if the Talent was at 6ft and they saw 4ft on the barrel... and the AC said 'don't worry, it will hold them' :o .. are you crazy?.... Maybe that is the way you run your Camera Dept... it certainly isn't the way I run mine... and pulling focus to the detriment.. huh? Other than the example(s) Mr. Mullin, Keth and I gave, I see no logical reason not to have the focus set and move adjust the Subject... unless defocus or throwing focus more fore or aft of your Subject is what you are after.

 

 

 

I'll take a Mr. Keth any day! He is 'spot on'!

 

When someone says words like "always" or "never" my ears prick up. Like I said it would depend on the shot. If the talent were 6 feet away and the lens were set at 4, I think I would be upset too. But, sometimes the action takes place much further away and there is often more than one point of interest in the shot. Sometimes we shoot action with something other an actor. Have you ever done any helicopter work, crash stunts or crane work? In helicopter work, it is physically impossible to run a tape measure, especially when you are shooting ship to ship or you have 5 helicopters in the frame. Anytime you have a remote focus, you risk have a gear slip or the unit going down. When you have no easy access to the unit, you sometimes want to keep focus changes to a minimum so you have no accidents. I realize now the systems are a little better but accidents happen. Am I crazy? Maybe not for the reasons you might think. Truth is you have no idea how I've run a camera department since we've never worked together or never met as far as I know. You may see no logical reason to set the focus but then you have to look beyond your nose. Feel free to ask any DP that I have worked with about my focusing ability. David spells his name Mullen, by the way.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Tom Jensen

[Tom Jensen]

Thinking about it even more, if the talent was at 6' and the focus was at 4' and the lens were a wide angle lens at a decent stop, I don't see the problem. I don't have a depth of field calculator but say the range was 3.75' to 15' I think I would be OK with it.

[David Rakoczy]

Have you ever done any helicopter work, crash stunts or crane work? In helicopter work, it is physically impossible to run a tape measure, especially when you are shooting ship to ship or you have 5 helicopters in the frame. Anytime you have a remote focus, you risk have a gear slip or the unit going down. When you have no easy access to the unit, you sometimes want to keep focus changes to a minimum so you have no accidents. \

 

Yes I have.. all of the above.. and that was covered in Mr. Mull(e)n's response "If you absolutely can't follow focus for some reason......".

 

Thinking about it even more, if the talent was at 6' and the focus was at 4' and the lens were a wide angle lens at a decent stop, I don't see the problem. I don't have a depth of field calculator but say the range was 3.75' to 15' I think I would be OK with it.

 

Wow....

[Tom Jensen]

Yes I have.. all of the above.. and that was covered in Mr. Mull(e)n's response "If you absolutely can't follow focus for some reason......".

 

I wasn't responding to David's post. I agree with David. Especially when he said, "Common practice is to still follow focus (change focus) with the movement of the subject (if that's what you decide to focus on), even though with the deeper depth of field of the wider-angle wide shot, it may be less critical so you don't have to be as precise unless the subjects gets close to the lens." I was responding to you because you said "the only exception" and "always." Now I know some DPs have easily bruised egos and hate being wrong or disagreed with but I will say I have pulled way more focus than you and I will venture to guess that you have little or no focus pulling ability. There's nothing wrong with that and you probably shoot pretty pictures but you aren't the only person with an opinion and/or experience. Pulling focus is an art as much as it is a science. I did it for years. I was the lens tech for 3 years at a local rental house and have rebuilt hundreds of lenses of all brands. I have collimated, shimmed and projected thousands of lenses. So I'm not just talking out of my rear. I'm giving my opinion and if you don't like it, too bad. Being a good focus puller also means that you know what you can and cannot get away with.

 

I'm not really sure that your statement that every DP you know would fire a guy if he were focused at 4' when the subject is at 6' on a wide angle lens. If it's sharp in dailies, that's all that matters. Not everybody here is a student and I don't appreciate your condescending, rude, disrespectful, arrogant attitude. It might work with your crew but it won't work with me. You've got the wrong guy. I've seen your posts and you do it with others. I can see you have a very high opinion of yourself but it seems a little over inflated. If you have a problem with my posts, ignore me or take it up with the moderators.

[Kar Wai Ng]

Thinking about it even more, if the talent was at 6' and the focus was at 4' and the lens were a wide angle lens at a decent stop, I don't see the problem. I don't have a depth of field calculator but say the range was 3.75' to 15' I think I would be OK with it.

 

In some situations with wide angle I will intentionally bias the focus forward (but still hold the subject in focus with some safety margin) in order to buy a little more background softness; some DPs will ask for this and others will just let me use my judgment.

[John Sprung]

A wide lens at its hyperfocal distance and a reasonably deep stop is what makes the Instamatics and disposable cameras possible.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[David Rakoczy]

I wasn't responding to David's post. I agree with David. Especially when he said, "Common practice is to still follow focus (change focus) with the movement of the subject (if that's what you decide to focus on), even though with the deeper depth of field of the wider-angle wide shot, it may be less critical so you don't have to be as precise unless the subjects gets close to the lens

 

Then we are in agreement.

 

 

I was responding to you because you said "the only exception" and "always."

 

That is correct.. unless you are unable to pull or due to limitations of the Lens, one should 'always' be pulling with the Subject.. do you still dispute that?

 

Now I know some DPs have easily bruised egos and hate being wrong or disagreed with but I will say I have pulled way more focus than you and I will venture to guess that you have little or no focus pulling ability.

 

Sounds like you are speaking from personal experience.

 

There's nothing wrong with that and you probably shoot pretty pictures but you aren't the only person with an opinion and/or experience. Pulling focus is an art as much as it is a science. I did it for years. I was the lens tech for 3 years at a local rental house and have rebuilt hundreds of lenses of all brands. I have collimated, shimmed and projected thousands of lenses. So I'm not just talking out of my rear. I'm giving my opinion and if you don't like it, too bad.

 

Talk about condescending....

 

I'm not really sure that your statement that every DP you know would fire a guy if he were focused at 4' when the subject is at 6' on a wide angle lens. If it's sharp in dailies, that's all that matters.

 

Wrong... being spot on at all times (if possible) is what counts! You can achieve focus by accident... or hit a proper exposure even though you calculated incorrectly.. that doesn't make it right. There is more to our trade than skating through with pretty (happen chance) dailies.

 

Not everybody here is a student and I don't appreciate your condescending, rude, disrespectful, arrogant attitude. It might work with your crew but it won't work with me. You've got the wrong guy. I've seen your posts and you do it with others. I can see you have a very high opinion of yourself but it seems a little over inflated.

 

 

Take your own advice partner.. your initial post in this thread read very laxidasical.. remember there are indeed Students here and reading your posts they will get the wrong impression. I can't believe more 1st's haven't chimed in on this as they pride themselves for being 'spot on' in every situation they have the ability.

 

If you have a problem with my posts, ignore me or take it up with the moderators.

 

Likewise....

 

I will take a Chris Keth or Satsuki any day as I know they will be spot on at all times if at all possible.... and that I appreciate.. that is a great work ethic.. that is the attention to detail that will pay off in so many other areas.

 

Sharp focus is sharp focus. If it's sharp, it is spot on.

 

You made an irresponsible statement (whether due to neglect or miscommunication).. just retract it or correct it.. don't get pissy with me for calling you on it.

 

Tom, on this thread... you may want to go 'back to one'....

 

Sam, I hope you have learned something...

[Tim Fabrizio]

Pull focus. Its your job. It keeps everyone at ease (operator, DP) when they know that the AC is taking it seriously. If I saw the barrel set at 4ft and the action was at 6ft+. I would tell the AD we need another take.

[Tom Jensen]

Pull focus. Its your job. It keeps everyone at ease (operator, DP) when they know that the AC is taking it seriously. If I saw the barrel set at 4ft and the action was at 6ft+. I would tell the AD we need another take.

Pulling focus is part of the AC's job. But just because you are standing there going through the motions doesn't mean you are doing your job. Would you tell the AD that you need another take if you were on a 6mil, 8mil, or even a 10mil shooting outdoors at a 5.6? The AD is going to laugh. Why do we even calculate hyperfocal distance? Why do people use splits? What's the point of calculating depth of field if we aren't going to use these tools? You don't always have to turn the knob for an image to be in focus.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Tom Jensen

[Satsuki Murashige]

Hey guys, no need to make this personal! Different strokes for different folks, that's all this is.

 

I will take a Chris Keth or Satsuki any day as I know they will be spot on at all times if at all possible....

Thanks David, but all I can say for myself is that I try, I don't always succeed. I don't want to create shock waves or anything, but I actually agree more with Tom in this case - what really matters is what the dailies look like. If it's soft there, then by all means fire your focus puller. But I personally feel it's unfair for a DP to fire the AC because he peeked at the lens and saw it was off during a take. I do think it's perfectly legitimate to cover yourself with depth of field for expediency in certain cases - it's a tool and it has its place, but it shouldn't be abused or used a crutch for laziness or incompetence. The lens scales are not always correct either. Especially on lenses with backfocus (or on the Red, where the backfocus is on the camera mount), I don't always trust the focus scales and often trust the monitor more. I'm always paranoid that the back focus is shifting and I double check it as often as I can.

 

For example, I just got off a three day industrial shoot with an HPX500/6-24mm Digizoom and 1.4x extender. Totally bare bones package, no follow focus, no matte box, etc. The DP comes from an ENG background and wanted responsibility for pulling her own focus a lot of the time. We were moving very fast, no rehearsals, no retakes, grabbing shots. We also had a steadicam flyer rig that we used from time to time. No wireless FF. The DP was operating, but she didn't have much steadicam experience, so I was called on to balance the rig and make it work as best as possible. At times I was asked to pull from the barrel and I did, even though we both knew it was a compromise. A lot of times, we went hyperfocal because that was the better compromise. And sometimes, the DP would unscrew the backfocus ring on the fly and throw it way out to get macro effects (at least she always told me when she was gonna do it)! But I don't take any of this personally - I just see it as the nature of that particular job.

 

So much of what we're talking about has to do with the expectations of a particular job and the working style of the particular DP. When I work with someone like David R., I try to work in his style. If it makes him more comfortable to see that the lens is always "on", then I'll do my best to live up to that. I'll let him know beforehand that I may need more time, an extra rehearsal, or another take from time to time in order to achieve that. And if I get another job like the one I just got off of, then I'm not going to slow down the whole shoot and wreck their schedule in order to accommodate my need to always be "on" when it doesn't affect the end product at all. Ultimately, what really matters is that the footage looks sharp and the clients (including the DP) are happy. That's all I really care about.

[David Rakoczy]

ok.. forget Satsuki.. I'll take Keth! :lol: (just kidding Satsuki).

 

But I personally feel it's unfair for a DP to fire the AC because he peeked at the lens and saw it was off during a take.

 

Hey, human error is part of each equation and I am certainly no exemption. Mistakes happen and that is life. Like beginning to roll and thinking 'are we still wide open.. we are supposed to be at a 2.5.... or the barrel left at 4ft because that is where the slate was shot ten minutes earlier.. things do happen and I would have to fire everyone including myself if it were as you quoted, however, if it was due to neglect.. or laziness.. or equally as dangerous.. overconfidence... and that AC shrugged 'don't worry, it will hold'... adios buddy. Or while operating I peek and see the AC is just standing there with his hands at his/her side.. whispering.. 'I know they are moving around a lot.. but don't worry.. it will hold'... um, no that is not acceptable.

 

Like Mr. Fabrizio said, if you can, do it....

 

At the same time, I certainly respect Tom's right to run his crews any way he sees fit. Peace Tom.

[Chris Keth]

ok.. forget Satsuki.. I'll take Keth! :lol: (just kidding Satsuki).

 

I win! :lol: :ph34r:

 

Anyway, I certainly see what you guys are saying. It does take some self discipline (as does the whole job of being an AC) to always be diligent about those thing rather than, even if you're correct, allowing the depth of field to do the job for you. I just know that if I let myself do that a lot, that eventually it would bite me in the ass and I don't want that. You do that once and there's one less DP that will ask you back.

[Mark Dunn]

The personal stuff is a real turn-off, btw. I just thought I'd mention it.

[Tom Jensen]

It's all good. I am very empathetic to AC's since that's the way I came up. I have fired seconds for holding me up. If someone can't keep up with me, they can't stay. It didn't happen often but their work reflected on me. I've worked with gaffers and grips that have moved up and they not as sympathetic to ACs. Think about all the tension that goes on between grip & electric and camera. A lot of the time the ACs deserve it because a lot of the time ACs can be real tools. Many show the grip and lighting department very little respect. I always got along with grip and electric because I let them know that their job was as important as mine and what they did for me was important. Buy a grip or an electrician a beer and you have a friend for life. Just remember that a DPs style is based on their experience and they way they rose to the job. When I moved up to operator, I knew how tough their job was but I let them do their job unless I had some advice or method that was more efficient. I use to say, "If there was an easier way, I'd be doing it." ADs don't always understand what it takes to prepare for a shot. You can't hang a first out to dry. You have to give him the opportunity to make marks and allow him to do his job especially when you are WFO and an actor is running at the camera on long lens. And you have to give him the time to change his marks if the director or DP makes a last minute move of the camera. The ADs don't like it but if you want it sharp it has to be done. I HATE shooting the rehearsal. It is often a huge mistake. But it happens and you have to go with it. Block, light, rehearse then shoot is the smart way. It saves money and really it saves time. That being said even the experienced first can get complacent and if you have to make a change, you have to make a change. I don't like firing people because this is how they make their living but if something isn't working and the problem has been addressed but not solved, you have to do what you have to do. But, if you are off on a remote island, you just have to deal with it the best you can or it will drive you nuts.

 

But getting back to focus. Hyperfocal and splits are just tools. They aren't used that often but depth of field is something that takes place every single take. You can't stop it. It's there. Wide angle lenses generally get used very little on TV or movies. Don't get me wrong, they get used but only when necessary or wanted. On a set, you stay tight because you end up seeing off the set. If I had a point, it would be that you have the tools and you use the right tool for the right job and you have to know what tool to use and when. You have to be able to adapt to the situation and the situations are often different. Sometimes you will have to do things that are completely opposite of everything you have ever learned.

[Stuart Brereton]

Or while operating I peek and see the AC is just standing there with his hands at his/her side.. whispering.. 'don't worry.. it will hold'... um, no that is not acceptable.

 

I understand the point you're making, but if the shot is sharp, why is the AC's behaviour unacceptable?

[Brad Grimmett]

If I saw the barrel set at 4ft and the action was at 6ft+. I would tell the AD we need another take.

So if you saw the barrel set at 10'6" and the action was at 11', but you knew for a fact that it was still sharp, you would ask for another one? Why? Would you still ask for another one if it was the 8th take, the actor finally gave the emotional performance on that last take that they had been trying to get for the last seven takes and was completely drained? What if the sun was going down and there was another setup that had to happen within 10 minutes or else you weren't ever going to get it? My answer in all these situations would be no, because we already got it. It was in focus already...

I'm just playing devil's advocate, but if you got the shot, you got the shot. Why waste time with semantics? Sure, if your 1st is constantly off then that is something that needs to be addressed, but we're talking about situations in which you KNOW you got it. What is the point of wasting time, money, and energy, and possibly irritating an actor, director, and producer/s, re-doing something that has already been done properly? It just doesn't make sense to me.

If you prefer to always have your 1st pull, no matter what the DOF, no problem, just let them know. I'm sure they'll be happy to oblige. But to be upset or redo something just BECAUSE, seems pointless to me.