Matt Braun Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) I just bought a 16mm Arriflex SB from NYU. I want to eventually shoot projects with dialogue. After doing some research I've figured out that I'd need a crystal sync motor. Can someone recommend a specific motor for someone who wants to just shoot dialogue. What I mean is I'm not looking to do anything fancy, so I don't need Any special features. I just need a motor that will shoot at a constant 24 frames per second so that I can sync up some dialogue. The most standard (and least expensive) motor that can do this would be perfect. And since I thinks this matters, I'll mention that my camera is a 6 volt. Thanks for any help!! PS. I would also love to edit the old school way. Are there any alternatives to a full steenbeck flatbed that would allow me to edit by cutting and splicing? Edited February 14, 2013 by Matt Braun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 "PS. I would also love to edit the old school way. Are there any alternatives to a full steenbeck flatbed that would allow me to edit by cutting and splicing?" There are what we used to call pic-syncs. Like a gang syncronizer with a little viewing screen. Quite nice to cut with but the viewing screen is quite small. Why don't you want to use a flat bed? Flat beds will be realy cheap if you can find one. Search eBay for Moviola, there's a Moviola pic-sync there now. Sorry I had trouble using an actual link here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Braun Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 Wouldn't a full sized Steenbeck flat bed be like thousands of dollars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) I searched the sold listings in eBay and saw a Steenbeck sold for $50. So anything is possible. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steenbeck-16mm-Flatbed-Editing-Machine-6-Plate-with-Sound-/140887227059?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20cd887ab3 There are other makes as well as Steenbeck. I have 2 Moviola flatbeds. KEM. Maybe CP made an unusual semi flatbed that had the beds arranged on stepped surfaces with a vertical syncronizer in the centre. Edited February 15, 2013 by Gregg MacPherson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Braun Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 Holy hell, $50? That little? That's awesome. Thanks. I'll keep a look out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dunn Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Steenbeck will sell you a new one for about £20,000. If you were in London you could rent mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Will Montgomery Posted February 15, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted February 15, 2013 Holy hell, $50? That little? That's awesome. Thanks. I'll keep a look out. That probably sold for $50 just so they could get rid of it. They take up alot of space in your dining room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Tim Carroll Posted February 16, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted February 16, 2013 As far as a motor for the Arriflex 16 SB, probably the easiest solution is to try to find a Tobin Crystal Sync motor for it. They are getting harder to find, but that is the easiest solution. The ARRI governor controlled 24 FPS motor can be extremely accurate if adjusted properly. I have used one for sync sound shooting. But you need someone who knows how to adjust the motor, and techs who can do that are few and very far between. The biggest issue with shooting sound sync with the Arriflex 16 SB is the noise the camera will be making. The Arriflex 16 SB can be very loud. Best, -Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Lewis Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) I'm new at this, so take my advice with a grain of salt. Is it really necessary to use a crystal sync? I recently shot some test footage with a K-3 and was able to sync dialogue sound with my projector for a full 25 second take by simply changing the tempo (but not the tone) of the recording in Audacity. I understand that some people might want longer takes, but the change in tempo is not even noticeable because the adjustment was only about half a second total. Is this a bad way to work? For instance, are there other issues that can arise when splicing multiple scenes together? Edited February 16, 2013 by Patrick Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dunn Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Syncing up shot-by-shot like that would be a bit laborious, but quite doable if you have more time than money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Will Montgomery Posted February 18, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted February 18, 2013 Syncing up shot-by-shot like that would be a bit laborious, but quite doable if you have more time than money. I just did a project with an SR3 syncing audio manually using the clapper alone. What a pain. I know the SR3 is timecode capable but I just haven't used that work flow. I'm looking into that in the future. How pleasant it would be to have the transfer house do the audio syncing for me in a standard "dailies" model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Christopher Sheneman Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I just did a project with an SR3 syncing audio manually using the clapper alone. What a pain. I know the SR3 is timecode capable but I just haven't used that work flow. I'm looking into that in the future. How pleasant it would be to have the transfer house do the audio syncing for me in a standard "dailies" model. Yes, Will! OP do not take any of the encouraging advice to go ahead with a Arri SB project with non-synced dialogue on Steenbeck!! Haha, I'm not even going into the details as to why, because it's so stupid and it hurts my head to think about it. But this- you will never finish your project. It will be an exercise in frustration, time wasted..etc. attaining useless skills such as syncing mag or working on a flatbed. Repeat this to yourself in times of weakness- "There is no glory in making already difficult film production more difficult in the hopes of fulfilling my nostalgic fantasy that no one shares". Do you think the editors of 50's wouldn't trade their flatbeds for a NLE system? Oh man, they would..They would kill for one. And you come along and blithely with the wrong camera attempt to create chaos! You wanna shot sync? Get a sync camera (with a crystal motor and self-blimped) and stop **(obscenity removed)** around. Best advice you're gonna get! **note: You'd prolly spend the same amount of money getting a special motor for that SB then just selling and buying a sync camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dunn Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Yes, Will! OP do not take any of the encouraging advice to go ahead with a Arri SB project with non-synced dialogue on Steenbeck!! Haha, I'm not even going into the details as to why, because it's so stupid and it hurts my head to think about it. It will be an exercise in frustration, time wasted..etc. attaining useless skills such as syncing mag or working on a flatbed. I think you should go into detail as to why those of us who learnt these skills are stupid for preserving them. Or even thinking about using them. I wouldn't sync up on a Steenbeck, I'd use my pic sync, but that's a British preference. Obsolescent, yes. Useless, no. Tell that to Tacita Dean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Will Montgomery Posted February 20, 2013 Premium Member Share Posted February 20, 2013 I think you should go into detail as to why those of us who learnt these skills are stupid for preserving them. Or even thinking about using them. I wouldn't sync up on a Steenbeck, I'd use my pic sync, but that's a British preference. Obsolescent, yes. Useless, no. Tell that to Tacita Dean. I think it's great to preserve the knowledge of how it was done. I would say however that it probably would get in the way of making a film rather than truly helping it. If you've never done it, taking the time to learn, understand it and get fast enough would be honorable yet counter productive when that time could be spent on refining the script, working with actors or on set design. In between films it would be a wonderful thing to learn from someone with experience but probably not in the middle of a production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dunn Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 That's very fair and reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zac Fettig Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 That probably sold for $50 just so they could get rid of it. They take up alot of space in your dining room. I saw a 16mm Steenbeck being given away on craigslist about two years ago for just this reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I just bought a 16mm Arriflex SB from NYU. I want to eventually shoot projects with dialogue..........PS. I would also love to edit the old school way. Are there any alternatives to a full steenbeck flatbed that would allow me to edit by cutting and splicing? Matt, You could do some rough sync shooting with your noisy, non Xtal camera if you really wanted to. Shooting a music video to playback for example. But there is extra work tweaking the sync. If you want to make some short dramas with lots of dialogue then you are better off getting a quiet running Xtal camera. Maybe just borrow one at first. Re the editing on film. The other guys are a bit discouraging. I think it depends on just how deeply or profoundly one is connected with the physicality of the film itself. On a practical level you can learn the basic knowledge in one short project. To see how strong your afinity is with it, just shoot some very short project with your noisy Arri, borrow some time on someones pic sync or flatbed and start cutting. Some of the facilities or people that you need may be very hard to find. You may be forced to go with a hybrid film/digital working process Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Christopher Sheneman Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Re the editing on film. The other guys are a bit discouraging. I think it depends on just how deeply or profoundly one is connected with the physicality of the film itself. On a practical level you can learn the basic knowledge in one short project. To see how strong your afinity is with it, just shoot some very short project with your noisy Arri, borrow some time on someones pic sync or flatbed and start cutting. That's beautiful nonsense, Greg. He'll get plenty "physically" connected loading those magazines, fixing a jam, paying $160+ to develop and transfer 10 minutes of 16mm. There is an old indie saying that goes "A fool and his film stock are soon parted". So true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 That's beautiful nonsense,......... There is an old indie saying that goes "A fool and his film stock are soon parted". So true. If Matt is curious about it just let him do it. The "fool and his film stock" saying Why is this specially applicable here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Christopher Sheneman Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 If Matt is curious about it just let him do it. The "fool and his film stock" saying Why is this specially applicable here? Because he's asking for advice and I'm giving him advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dunn Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 He asked for advice about how. You're telling him don't. It's like the farmer asked for directions who unhelpfully says 'well, I wouldn't start from here'. You're entitled to your opinion. I don't think you're entitled to talk about 'stupid' and 'fools' because someone has the temerity to suggest that things can be done that you wouldn't wish to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Drysdale Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I suspect it'll be easier without any kind of sync tone generated from the camera to do these variable speed transfers on a computer and edit with a NLE rather than with traditional mag film transfers. Yes it can be done, they did it with the very early fly on the wall docs, but it's a hell of a lot of work and you need a method to control the speed of the audio during the transfer. It's a lot easier if you've got a sync tone/ pulse sent from the camera to the recorder by cable e.g for pilotone and then do a transfer with a synchroniser that locks the sync. Manually syncing up with a slate is no big deal, just takes a bit of time and does have the advantage that can view your material. If you're going to go ahead with the wild sync method, I'd tend to put a slate clap at the head and tail of a shot. You don't want to be syncing up the tail by eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevith Mitchell Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Matt, if you are looking for a crystal sync motor and live in NYC. Contact DU-ALL camera. They sell motors for your camera. As for editing, contact MPE http://www.mpenyc.com They rent out Steenbecks for like $200.00 for a month. And I believe they deliver it to your apartment. The only problem you will have if you are editing on a flatbed is finding 16mm fullcoat. Fullcoat is what you transfer your sound to so you can edit it. Since digital came along, fullcoat has been put to the side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Drysdale Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I managed to find one place that seems to be selling mag film in London http://www.pec.co.uk/pecvnew/film-editing/35mm-magnetic-stock.html It would be worth googleing for a US supplier if that's the route you plan to go, You'll also need someone with the kit to do the transfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zane Belton Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I own an Auricon camera that actually doesn't use a crystal motor. You can actually use a DC motor- and some are quite acurate for double system recording. P.S. BUY AN AURICON!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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