"New" super-8 camera to market

[Ernie Zahn]

LOL you lost me at Windows Phone.

 

But seriously, I've had mixed results with pressure plates before. If it truly looked stable and the motor was super quiet then I'd be down for $1000...$1500 at the most. But my concern would be warranty, servicing etc.

[Chris Burke]

Lasse,

 

You rock! This is the best news in a long time. I wish you the very best in this venture. You can count me in to buy 2!! Do you have a website yet?

[Benjamin Dietze]

Okay, I've read the entire thread now.

Kickstarter indeed *IS* doable for anybody outside of the US or the UK. I'm in Germany here and I've recently funded a US Kickstarter campaign for a graphic novel edition project (the "Obscure Cities" by Schuiten & Peeters, in case anybody's wondering). As much as I remember, all I was required was to get an Amazon US account which either had my German bank card data, or connected to my PayPal.

And I guess if the first model is a success, you could release a second, upgraded model in the future (they could be the Lassecam 1 and 2! :P), which will be compatible with the 200ft Supermag, allow for higher framerates (different motor), and where the monitor could compensate for the film's ASA (firmware software would just make it render the image darker or lighter)...

Also, about the monitor flicker with framerates below 24fps, you could try and make the firmware software do a realtime pulldown where the captured frames would just be copied and/or blended in order to fit into the monitor's framerate.

I hear the pressure plate gives very different results with various stocks. It was designed for a single stock, and I hear many people complaining that it's shredding their films with any other stocks.

Also, I still haven't found any information about *REAL* timelapse and...oh, I see, no lens or monitor being part of the deal. That means the price tag is really higher than what we'd have to pay you.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Benjamin Dietze

[Jose luis villar]

In my experience the pressure plate on a 4008 Beaulieu gives excellent results. In this film you can see the difference between Beaulieu 4008 with pressure plate and Canon 1014xls without it. The scenes are sharper with Beaulieu and there is a shot, 1:18, you see the problem with 1014xls.

https://vimeo.com/69642459

[Erkan Umut]

In my experience the pressure plate on a 4008 Beaulieu gives excellent results. In this film you can see the difference between Beaulieu 4008 with pressure plate and Canon 1014xls without it. The scenes are sharper with Beaulieu and there is a shot, 1:18, you see the problem with 1014xls.

https://vimeo.com/69642459

 

Excellent example and very nice music video. Thanks Jose for remembering my Paris visits, and those lovely song, nice woman and the city!

 

As you know, the comparing shots should be done in the controlled light situations and test patterns. Several things could affect the judgement... But the pressure plate really makes the difference especially when it comes on the big screens.

 

What the interesting thing is that I get nearly crisp images with my Nikon R10.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Erkan Umut

[Jose luis villar]

Hi Erkan, Bordeaux is a true small Paris, beautiful and wonderful people. It is also true that we talked about two different cameras and, more importantly, different lenses. But the conclusion is that in some cases the pressure plate makes a difference.

[Erkan Umut]

Hi Erkan, Bordeaux is a true small Paris, beautiful and wonderful people. It is also true that we talked about two different cameras and, more importantly, different lenses. But the conclusion is that in some cases the pressure plate makes a difference.

 

Really the building in the middle of the two roads looks like the one in Paris :) What a wonderful city.

 

All my music videos are shot on 16/S16 and 35mm unfortunately. You lucky!

 

Your music video is tres genial!!! Merci beacup again...

[Anthony Schilling]

The Vision 3 color negatives in Super 8 are a force to be reckined with. I don't think a new camera to replace the old ones is as benificial as a new camera that shoots in wide screen format... on a new format like 10mm. If Kodak introduced a new aspect ratio small guage film format, it would be the best of all worlds. The 4:3 aspect ratio is one of the most limiting charactoristic of Super 8 in todays world. If we're just wishing here, the most ideal thing would be a new format that is cheaper than 16mm, can have the asthetics of S8 if you want, but can also look very close to S16. The new negatives, and a new small guage camera that was rock steady with crystal sync could potentialy be a new independant and professional analog format. Especially since digital is played out, looks technically good but boring, and all looks the same. If i see another Canon 7D or RED short with that same look, i'm going to hurl.

[Jose luis villar]

Hi Anthony, current vision 3 is a marvel in s8 if this scan well. I think s8 is further than 16, I myself want to sell my cameras 16 and s16. If I want sharp image with Alexa or RED, HDSLR still have no budget. To my s8 has the spirit of the old film. I think the new camera Lasse may interest some people.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Jose luis villar

[Jose luis villar]

Hi Anthony, current vision 3 is a marvel in s6 if this scan well. I think s8 is further than 16, I myself want to sell my cameras 16 and s16. If I want sharp image with Alexa or RED, HDSLR still have no budget. To my s8 has the spirit of the old film. I think the new camera Lasse may interest some people.

[Heikki Repo]

I hear the pressure plate gives very different results with various stocks. It was designed for a single stock, and I hear many people complaining that it's shredding their films with any other stocks.

Please do notice that the Framemaster (for use with super-8 cameras) and pressure plate in a new camera are two different things. In this camera the film is first taken out of the cartridge for threading through the gate and pressure plate. It's like in 16mm or reg 8mm cameras.

 

Edited August 18, 2013 by Heikki Repo

[Erkan Umut]

Its interesting that the pressure forces of the reloadable S8 Soviet (Kasseta), disposable S8 Soviet (Svema) cartridge and disposable S8 German (REVUE) cartridge are more than 150grf while the one for ELMO-300 Single-8 back is around 148grf (maybe the spring force is loosed due to time, I didn't take a reading of the one for FUJICA Z800).

 

The Single-8 pressure plate is flat, the cartridge plates are grooved as you know.

 

I think that S8 cartridges have good enough force.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2013 by Erkan Umut

[David Cunningham]

Im not sure why someone would think that the soundtrack area of the film would be of any lower quality. it's all cut down from huge (feet wide and long) sheets in the first place. they dont manufacture the film at only 8mm.

[Erkan Umut]

Im not sure why someone would think that the soundtrack area of the film would be of any lower quality. it's all cut down from huge (feet wide and long) sheets in the first place. they dont manufacture the film at only 8mm.

 

Yes, exactly. Its bulk making and cutting down (confection) into widths (then perforated) are like as in gear making from a long tube...

[David Cunningham]

Im not sure why someone would think that the soundtrack area of the film would be of any lower quality. it's all cut down from huge (feet wide and long) sheets in the first place. they dont manufacture the film at only 8mm.

[Benjamin Dietze]

Im not sure why someone would think that the soundtrack area of the film would be of any lower quality. it's all cut down from huge (feet wide and long) sheets in the first place. they dont manufacture the film at only 8mm.

 

Yes, but the left side in Max8 is closer to the cut which is obviously part of the reason why the optical quality is degraded there (more grain, loss of focus, moving lines...). Remember, Max8 is only an inofficial hack, exposing a part of the film that was never intended for that, one that no Super8 film manufacturer ever had to care about because based on official format specs, it was never to be exposed or even seen during projection. Every single Max8 film I've seen exhibited the mentioned problems and weaknesses on the left side.

 

It would be great if this new camera wouldn't have those problems! It's just part of the reason why I've never went Max8 so far.

[David Cunningham]

 

Yes, but the left side in Max8 is closer to the cut which is obviously part of the reason why the optical quality is degraded there (more grain, loss of focus, moving lines...). Remember, Max8 is only an inofficial hack, exposing a part of the film that was never intended for that, one that no Super8 film manufacturer ever had to care about because based on official format specs, it was never to be exposed or even seen during projection. Every single Max8 film I've seen exhibited the mentioned problems and weaknesses on the left side.

 

It would be great if this new camera wouldn't have those problems! It's just part of the reason why I've never went Max8 so far.

The max8 issues you've seen are because of the optics and/or a bad conversion, not the film itself. The edge of the optics are always softer especially as you near wide open. Thats what makes c mount awesome. You can use optics intended for 16mm and avoid those soft edges.

[Carl Looper]

That's beautiful Lasse.

 

Thank you very much for sharing. Very much appreciate what you are doing there. Have been inspired to go ahead and have a go at building a camera myself. I'm interested in buying into what you are doing there, so keep us up to date on progress.

 

cheers

 

Carl

[Erkan Umut]

The max8 issues you've seen are because of the optics and/or a bad conversion, not the film itself. The edge of the optics are always softer especially as you near wide open. Thats what makes c mount awesome. You can use optics intended for 16mm and avoid those soft edges.

 

Benjamin,

 

I agree with David completely. In optics, there is a certain image area of every lens giving the most of its quality relative to aperture. That's why the centering is so important. Also, most cinematographers use the 35mm format lenses in 16mm filming like me (but not often). "The focal length remains the same, but the angle of view."

 

The pressure plates duty is to contact the film by applying the proper force - an even distribution of force, also lateral guides are important, too. The thicker base (acetate) might be much more helpful than thinner base (polyester). That's also why Single-8 plates are flat probably.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Erkan Umut

[David Cunningham]

 

Benjamin,

 

I agree with David completely. In optics, there is a certain image area of every lens giving the most of its quality relative to aperture. That's why the centering is so important.

 

The pressure plates duty is to contact the film by applying the proper force - an even distribution of force, also lateral guides are important, too. The thicker base (acetate) might be much more helpful than thinner base (polyester). That's also why Single-8 plates are flat probably. Most cinematographers use the 35mm format lenses in 16mm filming like me (but not often)...

That's why the only camera worth the max8 trouble id the Beaulieu series if c mount cameras. That way you can use 16 or super16 lenses. Not even any if the canons cover the whole max8 frame. I think only the 814 and 1014 xls models come close but only if re centered and not at its wider angles. Even then, the edges are still soft.

[David Cunningham]

So, back to this new camera. Is there any chance for an early buy in or deposit of some kind?

[David Nethery]

Well done , Lasse ! I'm excited to see the photos of the prototype and I wish you all success with bringing this new Super 8 camera project to fruition.

 

The basic "black box" design does not bother me as long as it works properly , especially the pressure plate and pen-registration to steady the image , and the accurate , crystal sync frame rates. As others have said , the legendary Leicina Special (and the Mekel Vic SP-1 pressure-plate camera) are unadorned "boxes" , perhaps not triumphs of exterior design , but highly functional precision machines .

 

All things being equal, would I prefer that your camera have the good looks of a Braun Nizo ? Well, yes, of course , but to me the important thing at this point is that this is a real prototype for a working product that you actually intend to manufacture.

[Chris Burke]

there is that Ultra Pan 8 format. Perhaps some of the enthusiasm from this camera could rub off on those folks. God knows there is no such thing as too many formats

[Erkan Umut]

Lasse et al. are lucky cause there are many cameras and people around them to examine what are the pros and cons...

 

Chris, maybe you know, Nic Kovats from Canada is a very knowledgeable guy about the UP8 format and a serious follower.

 

Thanks to God, in these days that Ferrania is working hard to market a new or improved stocks for the various endangered formats. Without any film, cameras are only toys, but projectors (everywhere has tons of films to show even most of them have vinegar syndrome...). So we should pray for the new stocks coming, and more manufacturers come into the play especially for the reversal stocks.

I am missing the ORWO UTs and Svemas. Unfortunately, the improved Svema Och-90L (90 GOST near to ISO 90) Tungsten reversal stock for TV stations is gone when the Soviet Union collapsed. I was being lucky to shoot some rolls of it when they were given in Azerbaijan TV as a present. It was similar of AGfa-Gevaert stocks of that time, little brownish. At that time, Svema in Shostka, Ukraine was already finishing the Kodak processing friendly stocks...

[Oron Cohen]

It's a bit off topic, but I do need to ask. At the moment super16 cameras and 16mm cameras are sold for dirty cheap prices.

 

On top of it, you can get good deals with labs on dev+telecine on super16, so good for that matter, that last time I calculated it (yesterday) shooting super 16 was actually cheeper by a small margin than shooting super8, which for me leaves super8 as a format I would use just for the look of it, not to try and match lager formats picture quality.

 

You can watch a 7min documentary I made on super8 here:

http://oroncohen.com/Films/director/film2/DavidKing.html