Tye's Sony Rant

[Keith Walters]

This thread be like:

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Speaking of that, whatever happened to Jan von Krogh..... :rolleyes: ?

[Max Field]

The BlackMagic 4.6K interests me as a potential owner but I have yet to see any major projects shot on one.

Yeah I was about to say, does anyone know of a major feature using anything Blackmagic as an A-cam? Upcoming or anything? Even television maybe?

[Robin R Probyn]

I shot recently with the Varicam LT in V log.. even the LT is pretty big size wise.. alot bigger /heavier than the F55.. the movable LCD was not bad.. of course this is just the LT.. the main problem was the endless reboot..for just about anything.. although I guess this could be rectified in future firmware up dates..?

 

Yes I also mentioned The Crown earlier on in this thread.. as a very clear example of the fact that the F55.. can produce very nice footage.. when you have people who know what they are doing.. Im not saying its a great camera compared to others.. but for Tyler to just say its a rubbish camera because someone, even of his awesome reputation,history and knowledge in the film world..cant do so.. is plainly incorrect.. and needs to be answered ..god forbid someone new actually believes his posts..

 

F55 fan can be switched to OFF in rec.. Ive never had a problem with it myself.. or heard of it as a thing.. Like any digital sensor they like light and most people do set EI up 1 or 2 stops.. very rarely a problem with Slog for highlights..

 

On the Sony F5/F55 site ..there s actually a posting now where a guy shot and graded RAW footage from Alexa/F55 and F5.. his wife loaded the footage in Resolve so he had idea which was which when grading to have no bias .. and then showed them to ASC members and an Arri person.. and ask them to pick which was which.. 1.2.3.. very few people got it right.. the Arri guy didnt.. and most people actually picked the F5 footage as Alexa.. !!

 

Im not a Sony fanboy or share holder .. Ive had Panasonic camera,s and loved the look.. but blatant user error has be addressed on a supposedly professional site.. end of defense of F55 rant.. Im going to tinker with my Aston Martin now..

[Tyler Purcell]

Lighting, lensing and post work, can make up for a so-so imager, electronics and codec.

 

So when you watch a multi-million dollar production and you like the look, remember the look comes from those three things FIRST, rather then simply the camera itself.

 

When I judge/gauge cameras, I take them outside into the harshest conditions possible and that's how I judge them. I could care less what they look like indoors under controlled conditions because again, you can make anything look good in those conditions.

[Tyler Purcell]

Yeah I was about to say, does anyone know of a major feature using anything Blackmagic as an A-cam? Upcoming or anything? Even television maybe?

There have been a few features shot with the URSA 4.6k, but none of them "MAJOR" because with Red packages being so inexpensive today, why would you bother? If I 250k to play with on a feature, I'd simply get a Red Dragon. The "benefits" of cameras like the URSA mini 4.6k, are owner/operators, rather then rental houses. Honestly, what would you rent an URSA 4.6k for? $150/day? Seems hardly worth it for the rental houses.

[Tyler Purcell]

Can you explain your problems with F55 rolling shutter..?

I never mentioned the F55 having a rolling shutter. I only mentioned the F65 having a standard mechanical shutter option.

 

F65 is not an 8K recording camera.

All of the Sony documentation (linked above) says the camera has an 8k imager and can record in 8k Raw.

 

So if the camera doesn't do this, they are lying to the customer and that's one of my HUGE beef's with them.

 

It sort of seems you are trying to validity the very low budget fringe part of the industry you work in..

Around 90% of all filmmakers in the word, work in the same part of the industry I do. We're hired tradesmen, brought in to do a job. We shoot and edit anything that comes our way, no matter what it is; documentary, industrial, narrative, corporate, commercial, doesn't matter. We do it all because that's how you get paid, if you can't do something, you don't get paid. Most of us don't have one client, we have dozens and we work whenever they have work for us, otherwise we don't work.

 

My job is to do one thing, deliver a great result for my client, the end. I'm a curious person and I like trying new things, so I went ahead and followed your advice, THREE times actually. I figured three times is a charm and I was right, it did take three times to realize I was going the wrong direction.

 

You can call me the fool for trying, but I tried man, I tried. I should have listened to my intuition when the only cameras the rental houses had available were Sony's, the Red's, Alexa's, Blackmagic's, Canon's, they were all on rental, but the Sony's were sitting around. I should have gone to a different house and tracked down any one of those other cameras, but I didn't because I really wanted to end this whole debate about Sony vs the world.

 

So yes, I'm the fool. I'm the fool for propping up the F55 to my client and letting him down. Yes I blame the camera because it's just a camera and when the switches and dials didn't allow me to make the appropriate adjustments necessary due to some inherent safety precautions, that was the final straw. I don't care how good they are for multi-million dollar productions. I guarantee you if I put an URSA mini 4.6k on a big movie and shot raw, you wouldn't see any difference. NOTHING, ZERO.

[Robin R Probyn]

I disagree with your 90% figure.. yes we are hired in tradesmen and women ..and all of the above goes for me too.. but I would say 90% specialize in one field.. or at least that is their aim and they will do after a few years taking any job to get a foot hold.. the budgets and pay you have mentioned in the past, does really point to the very lowest funded productions .. on the very fringe of the industry..

 

You did actually imply the F55 had rolling shutter problems.. "compared" to the F65..you listed this in your gripe list.. I believe you didnt actually know the F55 was global shutter..

 

Well we have been done this road before.. :).. talking about the cheap fs7,s.. but really now you blame a F55 camera !!! totally.. for not getting a good image.. could it not have something to do with your capabilities as a DP.. as you say yourself its just a camera.. its spec,s are pretty impressive by any standard.. yet you couldn't get good images.. where as so many thousands of others can.. I have.. and many others on this very forum.. in a court of law you I cant see any defense lawyer taking your case :)

 

I really dont mean to be on your case.. but its a forum that people go to for advice as well as just having a good old fashioned bicker about camera,s.. which Im all for.. but total mis information has to be called ..the F55 is not a crap camera... most people could rent this camera and get amazing results.. even just as REC709 beast..

Edited March 6, 2017 by Robin R Probyn

[Satsuki Murashige]

To be fair, Tyler did title his own thread as a 'rant.' Get it out of your system and move on, man.

 

[Robin R Probyn]

To be fair, Tyler did title his own thread as a 'rant.' Get it out of your system and move on, man.

 

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Point taken .. moving on..

[Robin R Probyn]

Just hope no one is put off using the camera from reading his sage advise.. on a forum for professional cinematographers ..

[Satsuki Murashige]

I prefer to think that the person who has made the best argument will prevail in the court of public opinion, not the person who yells the loudest. I think most readers will consider the source.

 

Then again, given our current political climate perhaps I'm being overly optimistic...

[Satsuki Murashige]

You know what, screw it:

 

[Tyler Purcell]

Just hope no one is put off using the camera from reading his sage advise.. on a forum for professional cinematographers ..

I'm not a professional cinematographer? I spend thousands going to school for cinematography... I've been paid to shoot moving images for more then 20 years... Clearly my opinion doesn't matter because in your world, the only way for someone to be professional is if they make A LOT OF MONEY right?

 

Remember, the role of a cinematographer is just one slice of the pie. I personally enjoy more slices of the pie then most people, which is why I branch out and learn other disciplines within the same artistic profession.

 

Anyway, I'm done with ripping the F55 a new butt right now. I've said what I needed to get off my chest and I'm good. Project is delivered, client is happy after 3 extra weeks of work that was unnecessary and I'm moving on to the next project.

[Robin R Probyn]

I just said its a forum for professional cinematographers .. seem to have jumped through your own noose..

 

All I have ever said is that to call the F55 a crap camera..and totally responsible for rubbish images in your hands.. based on your own personal experience or lack there of.. is not correct, as others have produced excellent images with the camera .. and I also have alot of experience with that camera.. I would truly say user error.. if you learn a bit about the camera an Slog I think you will have better results .. no good turn goes unpunished .. crafts men and tools.. sigh..

[Tyler Purcell]

This is a place to share personal experiences, that's the only reason why this place exists.

 

I shared my experience and again, having talked to numerous other people via PM in recent days thanks to this thread, I'm seeing people agree with my comments, so my critique is not as one sided as you think it is.

 

I spent about 2 months on set working with the Sony FS7 Sony F5 and Sony F55 on a myriad of different shoots, in varying conditions, over the last three years. I've spent around a year (total) in post production for those shoots. I think this is enough time to have a grasp of the cameras and what I like and don't like about them, especially from the post production perspective.

 

Now, if you've got multi-million dollar production, a staff of technicians dedicated to creating the look through custom LUT's made on set, you've broken in to a budget class most of us never get to play in. So as I pointed out above, you can make ANY camera look great if you throw a lot of money at it during production and post. If you taylor the lighting, electronics and post workflow around the idiosyncrasies of the camera. So using top professional productions as examples of what a camera looks like, isn't a great idea.

[Stuart Brereton]

If you taylor the lighting, electronics and post workflow around the idiosyncrasies of the camera.

Why would you NOT do this? It's just common sense to adjust your technique to suit the medium you're working with. Sounds like you failed to get results you were happy with because you refused to adapt.

[Robin R Probyn]

Im not talking only about top professional productions.. those BBC natural history shows there is 99% no lighting at all.. yes everyone has their opinion on camera,s.. but to say the F55 is a prosumer level camera is just plain nuts.. I still cannot think of why you needed 3 weeks extra work to get footage looking good..from a $50,000 camera.. except you didnt really know the camera or understand Slog (presuming you were shooting that).which seems to have been the case in the past too, with your problems with Sony camera,s. I dont think everyone is making custom LUT,s on set.. and anyway this is just a LUT for viewing.. so I dont see the bearing that has on your footage.. if you were just shooting REC 709.. yes its Sony,s idea of REC709.. if you dont like .. that would be a 5 minute test to decide.. but its pretty easy to tweak that.. but really any narrative production would be shooting EI Slog..if not RAW.. if you cant get something decent from that.. really thats user error in the captured footage.. or someone in post not knowing what they doing..

If what you say is true.. this camera would be been assigned to the dumpster within months of its release..rather than often used as a B cam with the F65.. which you have also said was crap in earlier threads until Mr Mullens pointed out it wasn't ..then you changed your tune .. same goes for the total and utter failure of Fs7 sales I guess..

 

An F1 car is not crap.. if you dont know how to change the gears.. its a very rare case that 100% you can blame a camera for bad footage..which you claim.. and mind boggling not so if the camera is a F55.. you never heard that saying about bad crafts men and tools being blamed.. you have talked about the need to under expose Slog to protect highlights in the past.. the total opposite is true..

 

Electronic,s.. post work flow..idiosyncrasies .. what do you mean by this.. all digital camera,s are electronic ,, Rec709..Slog or RAW Sony workflows are well known and used everyday around the world..idiosyncrasies.. ? meaning what.. you dont understand the menu,s.. ?

Edited March 8, 2017 by Robin R Probyn

[Mark Kenfield]

I'd be kinda fascinated to take a look at some ungraded frames from these projects that you think would be fine on another camera Tye, but didn't work on the Sonys, along with a copy of the finished frame you ended up with.

[Robin R Probyn]

This forum is also for students and newbies to get information .. or anyone for that matter.. Ive learnt alot from this forum over the years.. thats why contstant blatant mis information and wrong terminology.. couched as if from an "expert.. " is not a good thing for this forum and will drag its reputation down..

 

I know its become boring .. but am I the only one who feels this way ?

Edited March 8, 2017 by Robin R Probyn

[Tyler Purcell]

I'd be kinda fascinated to take a look at some ungraded frames from these projects that you think would be fine on another camera Tye, but didn't work on the Sonys, along with a copy of the finished frame you ended up with.

I was thinking long and hard about doing this. The problem is, I don't have another camera as a reference ya know? So if I showed samples of ungraded and graded footage from a particular scene with one camera, I'd have to back that up with the same from another camera.

 

I do have examples of this with other cameras, but not any of the projects I shot with Sony cameras.

 

I'd be more then happy to post stills of ungraded and graded frames, but all that will show is my color correction abilities and not necessarily what the shot could have been using a different camera. I could point out what I don't like and how I think another camera would have handed a given situation better, but I would have no direct data to back my theory up.

[Tyler Purcell]

Electronic,s.. post work flow..idiosyncrasies .. what do you mean by this..

If you re-read my breakdown earlier of the things I don't like about the camera, they will fill in this detail. I don't feel its worth while re-explaining anything.

 

What I will say is this, maybe in Europe and Asia, this camera is used more. Here in Hollywood California, the camera is not used to the same level as it's counterparts. Thus, there aren't very many local resources. Even the rental house (Alan Gordon Enterprises) confessed to me as I picked up the equipment, how unused the stuff was.

 

Finally, why I used the word prosumer. In my mind, a prosumer camera is a mid-range (price wise) camera, with consumer camera traits (MPEG recording, ENG features, etc) with professional functionality. To me a truly professional camera uses technology that's incompatible with your home windows computer and is made for a specific task, not a swiss-army knife.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

Dunno could still be useful to see your ungraded/graded, if anything we could groupthink a way in which to counter whatever issue you have run into in future. plus, people often want to see ungraded off of x or y camera so as to play with on their own.

[Tyler Purcell]

Why would you NOT do this? It's just common sense to adjust your technique to suit the medium you're working with. Sounds like you failed to get results you were happy with because you refused to adapt.

Wait, suit the medium I'm working with? When I light, I don't do anything special for the medium... film or digital, for CCD or CMOS, for Alexa vs F55. In my eyes, if you light a scene, you should be able to put ANY CAMERA in that scene and shoot with it.

 

So what you're saying is that because I'm using a Sony and not a Dragon, Alexa, URSA, or 16/35... I should completely change my lighting style to fit the camera body? Sorry... that's not me mate. I could give two shits about ever using another Sony camera if I have to completely change the way I work due to their ineptitude at making a product that fits within the same guidelines as it's competitors.

 

Finally... and most important. As a cinematographer, a lot of times you don't have control over lighting. You've got a bounce card in the harshest, brightest daylight ever and you've gotta make the shot look great. You can "adapt" all you want on set, but in reality... when you have no control, it's the camera that makes up for it.

[Tyler Purcell]

Ok quick sample

 

 

[Mark Kenfield]

Cool, thanks Tye. The finished image looks like nice neutral result. Can you explain what your problems with it are?

I had a quick play in Resolve, and the first thing the scopes told me was that your log image is significantly underexposed. His skintones are sitting around 38 IRE, which is darker than middle grey on SLOG3 (so over a stop underexposed for regular caucasian skintone).

That said, the noise levels are very low on the Sonys, so you can boost it up a stop without any real objectionable issues. I did a super-simple grade on your .jpeg:

 

- lifted the levels to correct the exposure

- applied Sony's standard LC709A LUT

- applied a slight s-curve to add contrast

- did a quick primary colour correction (a couple of points here and there) to balance the colours a little

- applied a slight desat curve to both the highest highlights and the darkest shadows

In total, it took about 30 seconds: