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What is verdict on Cintel 2 scanner for 16mm?


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On 3/18/2021 at 7:21 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

Dang, that's too bad. But hey, I guess they need to have a reason to charge for the better imager.

Well I talked to the Reps for laserGraphics.

The new Archivist scanner uses a newer 5.3K Sony sensor not the junk JAI 5K they used previously.

It appears they are only offering the Archivist as a 16mm/8mm scanner now but still if I were you I would cancel that order for the machine you bought and order an Archivist from LaserGraphics, it has 2-flash and the Scan Station does machine vision pin registration which works extremely well and that other scanner does neither of those.

Same price the LaserGraphics is vastly superior.

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On 3/16/2021 at 12:14 PM, Frank Wylie said:

The wetgate was developed by Technicolor as part of their 3 color matrix printing system.

 

 

How did that work? Did they use the same gate for different dyes and clean in in between runs or did they have dedicated gates for each color?

Are there any films on the technicolor process from start to finish?

I have some IBT sun fade tests just starting. Dye Transfer prints have have good dark storage but poor light fastness. We will see how the film holds up. Although there is not much to compare it too. Just Kodachrome. All the film color print material has gone red more or less.

Here is a video on dye transfer...prints. I guess it is the same concept as film, just stills.

https://archive.org/search.php?query=Bob+Pace+'The+Dye+Transfer+Process'+Parts+D.D.Teoli+Jr.+A.C.

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.
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3 hours ago, Robert Houllahan said:

Well I talked to the Reps for laserGraphics.

The new Archivist scanner uses a newer 5.3K Sony sensor not the junk JAI 5K they used previously.

It appears they are only offering the Archivist as a 16mm/8mm scanner now but still if I were you I would cancel that order for the machine you bought and order an Archivist from LaserGraphics, it has 2-flash and the Scan Station does machine vision pin registration which works extremely well and that other scanner does neither of those.

Same price the LaserGraphics is vastly superior.

 

The archivist is an impressive unit. And almost affordable at $40K. It looks like a much better value than the Filmfabriek. They need to drop the Filmfabriek down to $25K to compete with the Archivist. 

The color recovery from red faded films is unbelievable. 

The 'color print with enhanced shadow detail' and 'high exposure B&W negative' is an example of what I wrote about with upscaling. Upscaling can blur the pixels to smooth out the look. I use it a lot of VHS transfers upscaling to 960p. The examples they used may not be the same thing, but the samples they offered are a good visual representation of it more or less. But like I wrote before, either you like the look or not. With VHS it looks like crap to start with most of the time. I usually have to desaturate about 40%. The upscaling smooths it out a lot. 

 

 

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On 3/16/2021 at 5:20 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

Not sure! But I'll know in 30 days or so! I'll do a very lengthy video for ya. It maybe a great option for the future for ya. 

 

Are you setting up yourself? When I checked they wanted about $3.5 K to setup and train. Lasergraphics wanted $7.5K for setup. But that was a while back. 

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On 3/16/2021 at 6:25 PM, Robert Houllahan said:

I helped to Co-Develop the DCS Xena which we use and I have three of, 4K 6.5K and one that will take a 12k or 14K  + sensor soon, I have actual full immersion liquid gates for them and the Xena has very advanced machine vision perforation based pin registration so I think I am good.

Could not find any info on the Xena scanner. Who sells it?

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Now when you talk about a monochrome scanner are you talking about a true B&W dedicated sensor with no color array?

https://www.opto-e.com/basics/monochrome-vs-color-sensors

If so, they are much sharper than a color sensor if you are comparing like size sensors.

At least that is how it is with cameras. I have not tried the newest monochrome cameras. But the old Leica Monochrom 18mp was equivalent to a 30mp - 36 mp color camera, roughly speaking. 

 

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11 hours ago, Robert Houllahan said:

It appears they are only offering the Archivist as a 16mm/8mm scanner now but still if I were you I would cancel that order for the machine you bought and order an Archivist from LaserGraphics, it has 2-flash and the Scan Station does machine vision pin registration which works extremely well and that other scanner does neither of those.

Yea I wish I could, but sadly I need to do soundtrack on both optical 16mm and magnetic super 8. I have way too much archival work that requires those AND the cheap wet gate will save my ass every day. If it didn't have those two features, I wouldn't have bothered, but I really need them. We'll buy an LG machine soon, probably next year. But I'm waiting for the 35mm, 16mm version. 

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7 hours ago, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

Are you setting up yourself? When I checked they wanted about $3.5 K to setup and train. Lasergraphics wanted $7.5K for setup. But that was a while back. 

Well yea, it's just a scanner. You plug it into a decent computer with fast storage and you install the software. I mean, that's about it. We paid for some software training to insure it's all good, but it was $700 or something for half a day. 

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7 hours ago, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

Could not find any info on the Xena scanner. Who sells it?

It's a custom machine made from an old rank telecine, but with modern optics and camera of course. Robert was part of the development on them, so he knows A LOT about them. They aren't really "off the shelf" machines. 

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6 hours ago, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

Now when you talk about a monochrome scanner are you talking about a true B&W dedicated sensor with no color array?

Yes, you don't want a color array, you want triple flash. But it's hard to do triple flash without a pin registered movement because how will you align the flashes? So generally triple flash machines are slow. 

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11 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

It's a custom machine made from an old rank telecine, but with modern optics and camera of course. Robert was part of the development on them, so he knows A LOT about them. They aren't really "off the shelf" machines. 

Actually they will sell you everything from a board kit and software up to a turnkey system either in a Cintel Y-Front - DSX or C-Reality chassis (these were million dollar machines and have better film transports than most new machines) or a fully new scanner.

DCS only uses the chassis and film transport from a Cintel machine no other electronics or optics etc. are used.

DCS Also offers full immersion liquid gates from 8mm through 70mm (I have 8mm 16mm and 35mm) and you can select your camera (4k through 14K now)

It is a more technical system than the LG but has all the advanced features

www.digitalcinemasystems.net

 

 

Edited by Robert Houllahan
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11 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Yea I wish I could, but sadly I need to do soundtrack on both optical 16mm and magnetic super 8. I have way too much archival work that requires those AND the cheap wet gate will save my ass every day. If it didn't have those two features, I wouldn't have bothered, but I really need them. We'll buy an LG machine soon, probably next year. But I'm waiting for the 35mm, 16mm version. 

The Archivist has Mag heads for 16mm and 8mm

The "Liquid gate" on that other machine has yet to really be proven as working, it is alcohol based and not full immersion.

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22 hours ago, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

 

How did that work? Did they use the same gate for different dyes and clean in in between runs or did they have dedicated gates for each color?

Are there any films on the technicolor process from start to finish?

I have some IBT sun fade tests just starting. Dye Transfer prints have have good dark storage but poor light fastness. We will see how the film holds up. Although there is not much to compare it too. Just Kodachrome. All the film color print material has gone red more or less.

Here is a video on dye transfer...prints. I guess it is the same concept as film, just stills.

https://archive.org/search.php?query=Bob+Pace+'The+Dye+Transfer+Process'+Parts+D.D.Teoli+Jr.+A.C.

The wetgate was used to minimize damage print through on each matrix.  Wear was a real problem for each matrix.

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1 minute ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Ohh they didn't make that clear on the website, or I missed it. That's good to know. For sure next in line. 

This is what they told me on pricing:

 

It also has the latest Sony 5.3K sensor, so scan quality is improved over the previous 5K camera as well. 

The 16/8mm Archivist is $40K with software Optical sound and the 5.3K 16/S16mm gate. The 2.5K 8/S8mm gate is $2500. 

The mag sound base is $2500. Each mag head is $2500. HDR is $2500. 

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1 minute ago, Robert Houllahan said:

This is what they told me on pricing:

 

It also has the latest Sony 5.3K sensor, so scan quality is improved over the previous 5K camera as well. 

The 16/8mm Archivist is $40K with software Optical sound and the 5.3K 16/S16mm gate. The 2.5K 8/S8mm gate is $2500. 

The mag sound base is $2500. Each mag head is $2500. HDR is $2500. 

Thanks for the info. No word on the low-end 35mm scanner right? I think that 5.3k imager would work really nice for 35mm. 

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1 hour ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Thanks for the info. No word on the low-end 35mm scanner right? I think that 5.3k imager would work really nice for 35mm. 

They actually had it on the LG Web site as an option for the Archivist but they evidently decided not to make it available and it is gone.

It was going to be basically like the Scan Station "Personal" I have with a fixed camera / lens and 35mm 16mm and 8mm gates at 5K 2.5K and 1.2K respectively. They told me it was to be $65K or so.

But no longer going to be available evidently.

If BMD put a decent sensor into a Cintel3 then that would be a good option for $30K

Or have DCS Build a Xena 6.5K for ya, the scans are very top shelf.

For example I just developed and scanned a major music video (S16mm) Monday for an artist named CJ the song has 333,000,000 plays on Spotify and the clients could not be happier the DP says the Xena 6.5K looks better than the Scannity.

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2 hours ago, Robert Houllahan said:

This is what they told me on pricing:

 

It also has the latest Sony 5.3K sensor, so scan quality is improved over the previous 5K camera as well. 

The 16/8mm Archivist is $40K with software Optical sound and the 5.3K 16/S16mm gate. The 2.5K 8/S8mm gate is $2500. 

The mag sound base is $2500. Each mag head is $2500. HDR is $2500. 

I got maybe 1100 films in the Archive. Only 3 super 8mm have magnetic sound. It must not have been very popular. Or maybe I'm just lucky. I would always prefer optical if I had a choice.

When you run the magnetic sound films on the scanner do you get any oxide shedding like R/R tape sheds?

File:Oxide shedding from reel tape D.D.Teoli Jr.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

 

 

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.
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On 3/24/2021 at 7:08 PM, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

Does that mean Scanity is overpriced Perry

If they're still charging $1M for it (they were last I checked), then I'd say it's about $750,000 overpriced. Honestly - it's not that good a machine. We've had several scans we graded and restored that were scanned elsewhere on the Scanity, and there's less dynamic range than the ScanStation 6.5k and the image weaves all over the place. 

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