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Technicians who service Eclair ACLs


Heikki Repo

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Some interesting ideas from the Y16 thread.

Pasting here so it does not get lost...Sorry if formatting is off..

Gregg MacPherson (NZ 6/04/22)

  4 hours ago, Heikki Repo said:

I have no doubt Tyler has worked on ACLs. They are nice and simple, even I have opened several. Mirror/shutter timing seems relatively easy to work with, clean and relube too (though I'm still trying to find the cause for some strange stiffness in one of them. We'll see if I go as far as try to replace the main drive with a spare).

Still, there are things like adjusting the pull-down claw or removing the ground glass or checking FFD that I have no idea how to do....

 

Gregg cont....

The ACL movement block is a very simple, compact design, but as with all good design, the simplicity and sophistication come together. The complexity is hidden. If trying to self service the movement, the things one does not know or understand can easily trip one up. If a full service manual was available it might help, but only if one had serious skill and intellect to begin with. On another thread, Dom jaeger opined that owners beginning to service their own cameras was likely to yield disastrous results. I agree.

Opening the body to remove the movement block is not hard. Assessing the wear on moving parts, the condition of the lubricants, checking the function of the claw movement and making the camera quiet...requires expertise. If a rebuild with full disassembly, even more expertise. Are there any special tools or jigs needed..?

The ACL is getting old enough that original lubricants in the sintered bronze bushes may need to be cleaned and re impregnated, or replaced. So a full disassembly and rebuild. 

I believe that all service and especially the identity of the (ad hoc) tech should be on the record, and produced on demand when cameras are sold. We have a list of legit camera techs we are trying to grow, maybe we need a list of dodgy ones, with "he who shall not be named" at the top of the list. 

Thinking more on the sophistication hidden in the simplicity...Years ago there was a camera technician on the forum who described in minute detail how his Aaton CLA jobs commonly segued into major rebuilds, requiring (for example) measuring the pulldown claw wear and regrinding it, removing oil, gunk from the sintered alloy bearings and re-impregnating under vacuum, and more...(hope I have remembered that correctly). It made me realize how little one knows, looking at this simple little ACL movement block.

So, my opinion, if one wants to tinker, one needs the right initial mind and skillset, and needs to be up for a lot of learning. 

Gregg.

PS: Travis, no downvote, but there is a "laughing" icon, which can read as ridicule if deserved.

 

Heikki Repo

On another thread, Dom jaeger opined that owners beginning to service their own cameras was likely to yield disastrous results. I agree.

It's ultimately about finding a balance between the extremely careful, OCD like relationship to one's camera ("I have to buy an expensive service before every shoot just to be sure, even if I haven't used my camera that much and it seems to work well") and a too relaxed approach ("this is how I remove pieces from my camera without any fear of breaking something by taking it apart in a mess and pushing carelessly with my screwdriver").

If it's a 60-90k camera used for award winning TV-series, please don't open it unless you know what you are doing. If it's a camera body that would essentially lie unused due to dried, messy lubricants and you wouldn't send it overseas for servicing in any case, why not learn a bit about how it works, try to service it, learn as much as possible from different sources.

As for ACL, what I have learned from those who have collected such information more than I have over decades and who have serviced ACLs themselves is that 1) they don't have names for some specific lubricants. Thus I went for Klüber Isoflex LDS 18 Special and Nye #140B clock oil. Furthermore, never are these ACLs going to run through as much film as they did when they were used by a TV station. 2) I have manual pages for correct way to set the shutter/mirror sync. No way would I have done it otherwise ?

The question about the self lubricating parts is interesting. ACL2 manual says that "The four drive shafts run in selflubrificated bearings and the camera mechanism should NEVER be oiled." Obviously, "never" might not mean 50 years later. The very important question is, do service houses such as VP do something about those self lubricated bearings when they rebuild ACLs? 

As I mentioned, one ACL movement is giving me a bit of an headache, because unlike previous ones, cleaning old grease and regreasing didn't solve everything. The funny thing is though that this is officially ACL2, so youngest of them all. Were it the other way around, I'd first have thought that it must be the self lubrication having run out. I'm still betting on dirt under main drive cover. But I'll probably know more after I remove the vertical shaft and see how much there is friction in the main drive after that. At least I have new old stock spares for the main horizontal drive shaft so I could replace it.

(Heikki)

Edited by Gregg MacPherson
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On 3/25/2022 at 6:28 AM, Heikki Repo said:

Later this year a new motor for ACL will be available from Finland. It replaces the original electronics and offers multiple sync speeds and includes a LCD to display battery voltage & footage counter.

Heikki! This is great news. Are you referring to the motor itself or some sort of internal body replacement? Would users be able to switch out the electronics themselves? 

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15 minutes ago, Nicholas Kovats said:

Heikki! This is great news. Are you referring to the motor itself or some sort of internal body replacement? Would users be able to switch out the electronics themselves? 

I am developing this new motor system ?

The new motor is made for a camera body which does not have the original motor and the new system replaces both the original motor AND the built-in original electronics inside the camera's base.   There is nothing of the original electronics used.

It might be possible to make the new motor user installable if all the new electronics are in a box mounted to the motor itself and no new electronics are installed into the base nor any wires are routed through the base making the base completely inert. This makes a user installable system less compact and the wire routing is not as nice but it would make it relatively easy to user install by just screwing it in place and fine tuning the mounting (whereas a system built into the camera base is absolutely impossible to user install and always needs to be custom fitted with possibly custom made circuit boards for every camera body)

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1 hour ago, aapo lettinen said:

I am developing this new motor system ?

The new motor is made for a camera body which does not have the original motor and the new system replaces both the original motor AND the built-in original electronics inside the camera's base.   There is nothing of the original electronics used.

It might be possible to make the new motor user installable if all the new electronics are in a box mounted to the motor itself and no new electronics are installed into the base nor any wires are routed through the base making the base completely inert. This makes a user installable system less compact and the wire routing is not as nice but it would make it relatively easy to user install by just screwing it in place and fine tuning the mounting (whereas a system built into the camera base is absolutely impossible to user install and always needs to be custom fitted with possibly custom made circuit boards for every camera body)

This is truly terrific news. I need at most 48fps in my ACL.  I have rock solid twin pin registered Photo-Sonic 16mm high speed cameras for anything higher up to 500fps. . Are you designing low speeds for time-lapse work? Are you gong to offer the motor/electronics install yourself absent external wiring?   

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51 minutes ago, Nicholas Kovats said:

Are you designing low speeds for time-lapse work?

I'm not the one making the motor, but I think that I speak for Aapo when I say that animation/timelapse motors are a different category of motor compared to this one. This motor builds upon the previous work Aapo has done and in those control boxes minimum fps has been around 3-5 fps.

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55 minutes ago, Heikki Repo said:

... animation/timelapse motors are a different category of motor ... previous work Aapo has done and in those control boxes minimum fps has been around 3-5 fps.

I wonder if allowance could be made for a separate,  developed later,  plug in box that gives time lapse, single frame, whatever else is possible, using the same initial motor. Form and ergonomics being unimportant. I'm hoping that single frame at approx 1/50 sec will be possible with the initial motor (no bulky plug in). One could hand hold, single framing it, like we used to do with bolexes.

Complete replacement of the motor rather than gutting existing motor shells gets my upvote. I think the motor shell exchange programme would have been a nightmare for Aapo. I do wonder if Aapo has considered the option of completely gutting the existing motor electronics but retaining the existing motor. (back to the motor exchange program fun sorry)

I read on the Cameras Eclair website that on ACL I..." the shutter driveshaft design is not technically designed for running at 75fps, though it may run perfectly fine at high-speed depending on the camera.  A technician can also upgrade the driveshaft..." If this is true (there are some erroneous facts about ACL I on that page) then Aapo's motor may not be for ACL I, so my previous thoughts about the motor mount plate,  camera base height..may be moot.

The errors on that web page should be discussed somewhere. Does anyone know who writes that..?

"..the small motor, which is not capable of pulling 400′ magazines without losing sync, blowing a fuse or burning out the motor...."  
This ignores the English 400' mag, designed with low amps, to run fine with the small motor.


"...the non-orientable viewfinder.  This does not have any effect on the footage; however, it can be an inconvenience for the cinematographer when holding the camera at unusual angles......" 
The two Ang type VF on the ACL I both could swivel, at least mine did, and had separate factory thumb screws for diopter and rotation. The VF image rotates as you rotate the VF. On the tripod, with the VF eyepiece commonly pointed up at an angle, one just rotated ones head to see the image upright.

Maybe we need a separate thread to correct the misperception proliferating out there about the ACL I. I think I saw errors on Ermut's website also...

 

Edited by Gregg MacPherson
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3 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

I am developing this new motor system ?

Aapo, 

not wanting to tax your time with a long explanation,  but will the natural run up time of your motor preclude the possibility of single frame at 1/50 sec. I mean, if the motor needs a few frames to hit speed we can't do it. 

On the ACL I,  (small motor) looking at the image density on the film, there is one (often beautiful) flash frame then apparently even density. Density not being scientifically measured, so ok, but it "looks like" that system gets to speed in one frame.

So is there a very short explanation about motor choice vs possibly adding single frame function.

Cheers.

Gregg

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6 minutes ago, Gregg MacPherson said:

I read on the Cameras Eclair website that on ACL I..." the shutter driveshaft design is not technically designed for running at 75fps, though it may run perfectly fine at high-speed depending on the camera.  A technician can also upgrade the driveshaft..." If this is true (there are some erroneous facts about ACL I on that page) then Aapo's motor may not be for ACL I, so my previous thoughts about the motor mount plate,  camera base height..may be moot.

The errors on that web page should be discussed somewhere. Does anyone know who writes that..?

"..the small motor, which is not capable of pulling 400′ magazines without losing sync, blowing a fuse or burning out the motor...."  
This ignores the English 400' mag, designed with low amps, to run fine with the small motor.


"...the non-orientable viewfinder.  This does not have any effect on the footage; however, it can be an inconvenience for the cinematographer when holding the camera at unusual angles......" 
The two Ang type VF on the ACL I both could swivel, at least mine did, and had separate factory thumb screws for diopter and rotation. The VF image rotates as you rotate the VF. On the tripod, with the VF eyepiece commonly pointed up at an angle, one just rotated ones head to see the image upright.

Maybe we need a separate thread to correct the misperception proliferating out there about the ACL I. I think I saw errors on Ermut's website also...

The very big issue with that website is the whole ACL1/1.5/2 categorization. Apart from the late ACL2, there are just ACLs with a variety of different motors and viewfinders at different points of time.

I'm also curious about the shutter driveshaft. I have opened one early ACL and three later models and couldn't really recognize any considerable difference between them. I think I could open that particular one again and compare it to those that I have open now - perhaps there is some difference.

Nonetheless there is loads of questionable information online. It might very well be that even the "early motor can't work with 400ft mags" is a myth caused by unmaintained magazines and cameras being too much for them.

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10 minutes ago, Gregg MacPherson said:

I wonder if allowance could be made for a separate,  developed later,  plug in box that gives time lapse, single frame, whatever else is possible, using the same initial motor. Form and ergonomics being unimportant. I'm hoping that single frame at approx 1/50 sec will be possible with the initial motor (no bulky plug in). One could hand hold, single framing it, like we used to do with bolexes.

Complete replacement of the motor rather than gutting existing motor shells gets my upvote. I think the motor shell exchange programme would have been a nightmare for Aapo. I do wonder if Aapo has considered the option of completely gutting the existing motor electronics but retaining the existing motor. (back to the motor exchange program fun sorry)

I read on the Cameras Eclair website that on ACL I..." the shutter driveshaft design is not technically designed for running at 75fps, though it may run perfectly fine at high-speed depending on the camera.  A technician can also upgrade the driveshaft..." If this is true (there are some erroneous facts about ACL I on that page) then Aapo's motor may not be for ACL I, so my previous thoughts about the motor mount plate,  camera base height..may be moot.

The errors on that web page should be discussed somewhere. Does anyone know who writes that..?

"..the small motor, which is not capable of pulling 400′ magazines without losing sync, blowing a fuse or burning out the motor...."  
This ignores the English 400' mag, designed with low amps, to run fine with the small motor.


"...the non-orientable viewfinder.  This does not have any effect on the footage; however, it can be an inconvenience for the cinematographer when holding the camera at unusual angles......" 
The two Ang type VF on the ACL I both could swivel, at least mine did, and had separate factory thumb screws for diopter and rotation. The VF image rotates as you rotate the VF. On the tripod, with the VF eyepiece commonly pointed up at an angle, one just rotated ones head to see the image upright.

Maybe we need a separate thread to correct the misperception proliferating out there about the ACL I. I think I saw errors on Ermut's website also...

 

Completely gutting the original motor but leaving the motor itself would be possible, though the issue with the camera body I am working on is that there is no original motor at all and there is no possibility to obtain bare motors without purchasing the camera bodies coming with them. So this is why I need to build the whole motor from ground up and fit a commercially available new motor instead of using any original parts.

It would be pretty easy for me to build completely new electronics to the old motor but AZ Spectrum already has that kind of modification available so I don't think I would need to develop my own design...   makes much more sense to build a completely new motor which does not use any original parts and can thus be used with camera bodies which don't have the original motor at all.

As for time lapse, I will of course test how the system works at very slow framerates but most normal motors don't drive the camera well at extremely low rpm and it tends to cause unreliable exposure times. The time lapse feature people are asking for means that one needs to electrically accelerate the motor from stop position to normal 24fps speed in an instant and then immediately stop if when it has just turned exactly one revolution. This causes lots of unnecessary stress to the mechanics if the normal motor is used for this and I would personally use a stepper motor for time lapse applications if lower fps is needed than the normal motor can provide.  Most cameras can run relatively OK at about from 3fps to 5fps with normal motor and thus I expect the lowest practical fps being about from 3 to 5fps

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1 minute ago, Heikki Repo said:

there are just ACLs with a variety of different motors and viewfinders at different points of time

...and other features too, from single-system audio to Eclair timecode solution!

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54 minutes ago, Heikki Repo said:

...and other features too, from single-system audio to Eclair timecode solution!

I've had two of the English mags that were ex single system sound, the sound module no longer there and the entry hole at the bottom of the casting with a plate over it. Welded I think.

I did some testing on relative current draw on French vs Eng 400' mags recently and will start a thread on that. Stephen Jackson recently advertised his ACL with small motor and French 400' on the forum and sold it. After some discussions with him privately on the issue. Apparently he had it serviced, and the tech, who he would not disclose, told him that the strain on the small motor was a myth. See you over there maybe....English ACL 400' mags. Facts and Myths...

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4 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

The new motor is made for a camera body which does not have the original motor and the new system replaces both the original motor AND the built-in original electronics inside the camera's base.   There is nothing of the original electronics used.

This part confuses me.  I am by no means an ACL expert, but the camera base seems to mostly be a junction box to connect all these various things that can attach to it.   There is a 5V regulator in there but you could just ignore that and provide your own voltages if you were worried about hooking to a camera where that was broken.  And anything else that's broken (on/off switch, clapper switch, etc.) is outside the purview of a replacement motor anyway.  Is it just a matter of needing that space to fit all your circuitry?  Why else would you need to actually gut the camera base when installing your motor?

Duncan

Edited by Duncan Brown
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24 minutes ago, Duncan Brown said:

This part confuses me.  I am by no means an ACL expert, but the camera base seems to mostly be a junction box to connect all these various things that can attach to it.   There is a 5V regulator in there but you could just ignore that and provide your own voltages if you were worried about hooking to a camera where that was broken.  And anything else that's broken (on/off switch, clapper switch, etc.) is outside the purview of a replacement motor anyway.  Is it just a matter of needing that space to fit all your circuitry?  Why else would you need to actually gut the camera base when installing your motor?

This particular ACL base is non-standard (closer to ACL2 in size). It is without lightmeter electronics and the original electronics don't function. For my use case and for many others too due to ergonomics it's better to try to fit the new electronics including LCD in the base. That way the camera doesn't become bigger and the pre-existing XLR connector can be used.

By the way Duncan, if you have the lightmeter, I would be interested in finding out what voltages are present in the wires that go to the leds. I have an ACL head with the ldr resistor and the leds, but not the necessary electronics in the base and would like to try to build replacement for it. Three wires go to the 7-led block, I can give you their colors...

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1 minute ago, Heikki Repo said:

This particular ACL base is non-standard (closer to ACL2 in size). It is without lightmeter electronics and the original electronics don't function. For my use case and for many others too due to ergonomics it's better to try to fit the new electronics including LCD in the base. That way the camera doesn't become bigger and the pre-existing XLR connector can be used.

By the way Duncan, if you have the lightmeter, I would be interested in finding out what voltages are present in the wires that go to the leds. I have an ACL head with the ldr resistor and the leds, but not the necessary electronics in the base and would like to try to build replacement for it. Three wires go to the 7-led block, I can give you their colors...

Ah OK makes sense,

Sure!  Someday I'll have the base apart and tell you what I find.  The schematic in the manual implies the 5V regulator only gets power when the motor switch is on (not just the lightmeter switch) so I'm guessing it's a 12V circuit.

Duncan

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45 minutes ago, Gregg MacPherson said:

Stephen Jackson recently advertised his ACL with small motor and French 400' on the forum and sold it. After some discussions with him privately on the issue. Apparently he had it serviced, and the tech, who he would not disclose, told him that the strain on the small motor was a myth.

That's how I became aware of this matter too, though on Facebook. I tend to have faith in his tech.

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5 minutes ago, Duncan Brown said:

Sure!  Someday I'll have the base apart and tell you what I find.  The schematic in the manual implies the 5V regulator only gets power when the motor switch is on (not just the lightmeter switch) so I'm guessing it's a 12V circuit.

The question I have is really "how does that led block work?" so seeing if voltage changes depending on different light conditions might give me some clue how seven leds are driven with three wires ?

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1 hour ago, Heikki Repo said:

The question I have is really "how does that led block work?" so seeing if voltage changes depending on different light conditions might give me some clue how seven leds are driven with three wires ?

Aha!  Interesting.  I had not noticed that little detail.

Duncan

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Took ages but I started a thread...

English ACL 400' mags. Facts and Myths...

https://cinematography.com/index.php?/forums/topic/91664-english-acl-400-mags-facts-and-myths/

Oh, big letters, must be because it took ages to write...maybe I'm the one who needs to be given the antique typewriter (with no internet connection).....

Edited by Gregg MacPherson
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Anyone reading the English ACL 400' mags. Facts and Myths thread will have noticed Dom Jaeger's post. It looks like he is now servicing ACLs. When I asked him about it a while ago he wasn't keen because he was less familiar with them, but now maybe he's in. I think we can cautiously put a pin on Melbourne for our global map of techs servicing ACLs.

We should do anything we can to support the techs. Find all the ex-Arts Media parts and  locate other sources. If we have a stash of parts ourselves, like more than we need to service our own camera, or components for parting out (wrecking) consider making those parts available (to buy).

Gregg.

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9 hours ago, Heikki Repo said:

The question I have is really "how does that led block work?" so seeing if voltage changes depending on different light conditions might give me some clue how seven leds are driven with three wires ?

normally this type of systems work like a simple "voltage meter" so there is one wire for GND, one wire for power in + and one wire for measuring input which has a treshold voltage for every led step.  I expect it being easy to figure out the exact voltages if knowing which wire is which and what the power input voltage for the meter is (so that the operation voltage is correctly applied) and then applying precisely variable voltage to the input wire and seeing which leds become lit at which exact voltage input. 

both photocells and photoresistor circuits work by translating light changes to varying voltage levels and the light meters just "measure this voltage" presenting it on a scale fit to the specific application.

It is possible to emulate this type of metering device with modern components (either with programmable parts or with traditional parts, for example with multiple operational amplifiers set to different treshold voltage steps) . The circuit is not super challenging in either case but cad designing a new circuit board for the meter takes some skill and time and getting the circuit and program details exactly right requires having a camera body with the original photosensor to experiment with.  If using programmable parts (microcontrollers in this case) it is possible to create unlimited exposure compensation features to the meter so that film speeds etc. can be freely set by the user and it is even possible to build a system which takes the camera's actual running speed into account (by measuring the actual motor speed separately) and automatically compensating exposure readings when the speed changes (would be even possible to build a servo output which actually drives mechanically the iris of the lens so that it would be a auto exposure system which can fully compensate for speed ramps)

Edited by aapo lettinen
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14 minutes ago, aapo lettinen said:

there is one wire for GND, one wire for power in + and one wire for measuring input which has a treshold voltage for every led step.  I expect it being easy to figure out the exact voltages if knowing which wire is which and what the power input voltage for the meter is (so that the operation voltage is correctly applied) and then applying precisely variable voltage to the input wire and seeing which leds become lit at which exact voltage input. 

Yes, that's something I was thinking.

For my use replicating the original function where a "zero" reference exposure is set and the leds then show half stop difference to it would be sufficient, but it's definitely great to know of all the possibilities there are with the help of modern components!

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On 4/6/2022 at 2:27 AM, Gregg MacPherson said:

As I mentioned, one ACL movement is giving me a bit of an headache, because unlike previous ones, cleaning old grease and regreasing didn't solve everything. The funny thing is though that this is officially ACL2, so youngest of them all. Were it the other way around, I'd first have thought that it must be the self lubrication having run out. I'm still betting on dirt under main drive cover. But I'll probably know more after I remove the vertical shaft and see how much there is friction in the main drive after that. At least I have new old stock spares for the main horizontal drive shaft so I could replace it.

Here's a photo of a spare main drive.

IMG-07042022-120821-977-x-1736-pixel.jpg

I suspect there is dirt under the cover, in this photo left to the bearing on the middle. But I'll know for sure only after I have removed the piece from the camera.

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Re Heikki's post above...problem with the ACL movement...friction?

The best you can get from someone like me on this is guesswork and ideas by inference from other things. Like I said before, what one doesn't know or understand about the engineering of the movement block can trip one up.

One thing that will help, lets all agree to try to use the descriptive names (and numbers if it helps) for the parts, refering to the drawings. So for example the pic shows the claw control shaft. 

Can you make it clear what the symptoms are, what the problem is exactly? Are you noting high friction in a fully assembled movement block and can't see what's causing it?

The only ideas that come to mind are..aged or contaminated lubricants, damaged bearing surfaces by scratches etc (I'm calling both contact surfaces, shaft and bush, bearing surfaces), misaligned bearing surfaces (by bent shaft or...).

Like I mentioned before, the age of the lubricants may mean that a full tear down is needed. Guys like Paul S. and Dom J. would have some ideas on that. The aging of the lubricants may vary with temperature, humidity, frequency of use...

The aging of the lubricant in the sintered bronze bushes concerns me. If that lubricant looses it's mechanical properties so that it doesn't self replenish the bearing surface when warm then the bearing isn't adequately lubricated. Do the pores become clogged? Simply adding oil near the juncture of the shaft and bush may not re-invigorate the original function of the impregnated "oil".

If oil is applied externally to the shaft/bush juncture, then we need to know exactly what oil, roughly how much, how often and under what circumstances. Bruce at Arranda said that he only applied a drop of oil if the camera was sounding "rattley". Overfeeding oil to the sintered bronze bearing surfaces, if they are clogged with old lubricant, my instinct screams that this is bad, and you might have to do it frequently once the function of the sintered bush is compromised. The sintered bronze would behave more like a plain bush.

Re the age difference between ACL I and II contributing to the age of the lubricants. If some lubricants have never been totally replaced since new, then the I vs II age difference is relatively unimportant.

On the list of lubricants for ACL. I think we havent looked hard enough, or are asking the wrong people. We don't need exactly the same lubricants, but we do need ones with the same specified properties.

Gregg.

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1 hour ago, Gregg MacPherson said:

One thing that will help, lets all agree to try to use the descriptive names (and numbers if it helps) for the parts, refering to the drawings. So for example the pic shows the claw control shaft. 

Yes, let's do that. Time to end sloppiness on that front!

1 hour ago, Gregg MacPherson said:

Can you make it clear what the symptoms are, what the problem is exactly? Are you noting high friction in a fully assembled movement block and can't see what's causing it?

The friction is present even when the mirror/magazine drive spindle (MIN 30E) is disconnected. Furthermore, at least when that spindle is connected, the friction seems to be higher at one specific point of the mirror.

The previous three ACLs had old, dirty grease too and cleaning it out and replacing with new made the movement turn really well without friction. Then again, this one was totally stuck when I began my work, whereas the others weren't in that bad condition to begin with.

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