WTB: Aaton Penelope 2 and 3 perf 35mm camera

[Edith blazek]

Unless someone is still doing conversions of say a bl4 to 2 perf, it's looking like the best way to shoot sync sound 2 perf is with an Aaton Penelope. Problem being that the one on offer from fjs international is like $85k, roughly $20k more than the last time I saw a Penelope on there, so I'm here. Does anyone know of anyone with an Aaton Penelope for sale?

[Tyler Purcell]

BL4's are way easier to find already converted, way cheaper as well. I'd just keep an eye out, you'll find one. 

Penelope's are far rarer actually. 

[victor huey]

Andree Martin at AM Camera is still doing BL4 to Two perf, I had my camera done two years ago.

[Edith blazek]

8 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

BL4's are way easier to find already converted, way cheaper as well. I'd just keep an eye out, you'll find one. 

Penelope's are far rarer actually. 

Alright, in terms of getting either the bl4 or Penelope serviced, which one is the better choice?

[Tyler Purcell]

7 hours ago, victor huey said:

Andree Martin at AM Camera is still doing BL4 to Two perf, I had my camera done two years ago.

You got his last parts sadly.

[Tyler Purcell]

10 minutes ago, Edith blazek said:

Alright, in terms of getting either the bl4 or Penelope serviced, which one is the better choice?

BL4 is pretty bulletproof, Penelope only has one tech in the world who has parts. When they're gone, they're gone. BL4's are as ubiquitous as SR's, so PLENTY of parts. Totally different cameras tho. The Penelope is a 16mm camera that shoots 35mm, the BL4 is a tank compared. 

[Isaac Eastgate]

Hi Edith, also worth mentioning that as far as i understand it, with demand at an all-time-high, the market is virtually run by brokers like fjs. If a significantly better deal did pop up here, they would buy it and take the difference for themselves. With supply low and demand high, that seems to be how it works at the moment.

[Kemalettin Sert]

3 hours ago, Isaac said:

Hi Edith, also worth mentioning that as far as i understand it, with demand at an all-time-high, the market is virtually run by brokers like fjs. If a significantly better deal did pop up here, they would buy it and take the difference for themselves. With supply low and demand high, that seems to be how it works at the moment.

Good thing is prices going down and people started to understand it was all stupid hype.
I feel bad for the people paid 100-120k for 416s..
Penelopes were around 100-140k range 6-8 months ago.

[Isaac Eastgate]

1 hour ago, Kemalettin Sert said:

Good thing is prices going down and people started to understand it was all stupid hype.
I feel bad for the people paid 100-120k for 416s..
Penelopes were around 100-140k range 6-8 months ago.

Never saw either of those price ranges for either camera. Maybe 100 for a really nice 416 with indieassist tap (worth 12k) and lots of mags? No sign of prices coming down yet, although some brokers do add 20% to their asking price on the off chance someone has no time to negotiate, whereas the actual sale price will be around the market rate. A body only used 416 selling for 80, after a mint 5 mag HD tap with batts sold for 100, definitely doesnt mean prices are falling.

They remain good investments for their rental value even if we're at peak, things will only come crashing down if kodak files for bankruptcy again.

[Kemalettin Sert]

10 hours ago, Isaac said:

Never saw either of those price ranges for either camera. Maybe 100 for a really nice 416 with indieassist tap (worth 12k) and lots of mags? No sign of prices coming down yet, although some brokers do add 20% to their asking price on the off chance someone has no time to negotiate, whereas the actual sale price will be around the market rate. A body only used 416 selling for 80, after a mint 5 mag HD tap with batts sold for 100, definitely doesnt mean prices are falling.

They remain good investments for their rental value even if we're at peak, things will only come crashing down if kodak files for bankruptcy again.

FJS have Penelope for 69K...

Good investments ? Really ? imho they are the worst investment for rental.If you dont care about rental and have already 100k to burn for fun yes do it..

[Edith blazek]

5 minutes ago, Kemalettin Sert said:

FJS have Penelope for 69K...

Good investments ? Really ? imho they are the worst investment for rental.If you dont care about rental and have already 100k to burn for fun yes do it..

Yeah I checked again and it's back to $69k, I remember the site catalog being nuked with only like 3 cameras but i guess that was a backlog thing.

I can somewhat understand your point as for being nearly 4x the price to buy over an sr3, the 416 only garners like 2x the rental price.

[Julie Ormond BANNED]

Edith

I do not recommend you anymore Penelope, even if this was a GREAT camera back 15 years ago, as Aaton has been sold out, no one over there is still able to repair, and there are no more spares at all.

We know very well their (former) camera technician, who now maintains Cantar's and nothing else.
The company who bought Aaton (Transvideo International) did not keep ANY parts for Aaton cameras (S16/35) and the great inventor Jean Pierre Beauviala passed away a few years ago ...

ONLY those rental houses who bought a Penelope and sent their camera tech for training could help you.

I was able, with my friend who went training to make this happen.

Our camera got sold out for a ridiculous price back 10 years ago (not even €20K).

That camera FJS International is trying to sell since months at this crazy price belongs to TSF cameras in Paris.

And nobody will  pay such a high price of course .... furthermore this camera has been running many thousands of hours, so you would be buying "a cat in a bag" with no warranty at all it's still quiet enough.

That's my feeling, to share !

and YES, ANDRE MARTIN, AT AM CAMERAS, IS THE ONE CLOSE TO YOU

PS: there is on this platform a GREAT camera still available for sale: a MOVIECAM SL Mk2 which is a great one, wold as a bindle with MANY magazines (all of them ...) but it's 3 and 4 perfs... 

best regards and good luck

 

[Isaac Eastgate]

The rental investment makes sense of course, the camera isnt depreciating and you can get 600-1000/day for it, so over 2 years a full return on the investment plus you can sell the camera again for how much you paid for it (or destroy it for insurance money, all the same).

Then factor in that even if it wasnt, its a great loss leader, if someone wants to shoot 16 then even if you zero rate the camera you’re getting a full job of accessories, lenses, grip and maybe even lighting going out that you wouldnt have otherwise. And yes, people are shooting a ton of 16, thats why 7219 has been almost completely sold out for over a year now. Every fact about the situation shows that its a great investment.

The penelope is not only newer than the moviecam but far newer than the arricam that replaced it too, right? Isnt it the most modern 35mm camera in existence by about a decade?

1 hour ago, Julie Ormond said:

Edith

I do not recommend you anymore Penelope, even if this was a GREAT camera back 15 years ago, as Aaton has been sold out, no one over there is still able to repair, and there are no more spares at all.

 

I mean this statement is bordering on insane, the camera didn’t even exist 15 years ago, its 14 years old at the most.

I think if anyone here wants any non-delusional information about this stuff it might be best to talk to Danny at Cinefacilities. Fully Aaton trained, has spare parts for the penelope, has serviced a few of them. He would be able to give a clear understanding of what it takes to run one.

Old Fast Glass in the US i think have 2 penelopes ready to hire. Last major feature film that shot on these was First Man with Ryan Gosling as far as i know, not sure if they struggled to work with a 14 year old camera…

We need to be real about the industry and bring some common sense to the forum: the prices wouldn’t be this high if people weren’t willing to pay it. The 416 or penelope can go for 80 or 100k because people will rip your arms off if you list it for 60. Huge waiting lists across the world with the money ready to go at a moments notice.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Isaac

[Tyler Purcell]

1 hour ago, Julie Ormond said:

I do not recommend you anymore Penelope, even if this was a GREAT camera back 15 years ago, as Aaton has been sold out, no one over there is still able to repair, and there are no more spares at all.

Yea, this is my biggest problem with the Penelope as well. It's part of the reason I kinda took it off my "must have" list. 

Danny @ https://www.cinefacilities.com/aaton

Is the last guy to service them with parts. Andree can do some things (I generally do the majority of Aaton service for him anyway) but Danny can do a lot. He has all the spares and is far more up to date on actual problems. When we encounter them, we have to research and it takes time. When he encounters them, he's seen them before and knows what to do. 

The core Penelope owners group is pretty tight, great people all the way around and there is support, if you're willing to ship. 

9 minutes ago, Isaac said:

The rental investment makes sense of course, the camera isnt depreciating and you can get 600-1000/day for it, so over 2 years a full return on the investment plus you can sell the camera again for how much you paid for it (or destroy it for insurance money, all the same).

Which is impossible these days. Any major show is going to want 2 bodies, not just one. They'll also mostly want to rent because the rental house provides them a guarantee that a owner/operator doesn't. So unless you're a top DP and are doing a few features on 35mm a year, the idea of renting it and getting your money back in 2022 is not possible. Most of the people who own Penelope's got them when they were cheap comparatively. 

9 minutes ago, Isaac said:

the penelope is not only newer than the moviecam but far newer than the arricam that replaced it too, right? Isnt it the most modern 35mm camera in existence by about a decade?

The Moviecam SL MKII is an Arricam LT actually. It's basically the same camera, but the SL has the Moviecam viewfinder system and carbon fiber housing, among other minor differences. People forget, the Arricam's ARE the next gen Moviecam's. 

[Isaac Eastgate]

Correction: Ad Astra, BlackkKlansman, First Man and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood all shot Penelope in the last 4 years.

Seems like its popularity is rising.

7 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Which is impossible these days. Any major show is going to want 2 bodies, not just one. They'll also mostly want to rent because the rental house provides them a guarantee that a owner/operator doesn't. So unless you're a top DP and are doing a few features on 35mm a year, the idea of renting it and getting your money back in 2022 is not possible. Most of the people who own Penelope's got them when they were cheap comparatively. 

 

Yes this is what i mean, the prices are real and theyre a good investment for the people who are actually buying them, mostly rental houses and consignment.

Multiple bodies is true but i think for these kind of cameras the fallback is crosshire anyway.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Isaac

[Tyler Purcell]

11 minutes ago, Isaac said:

Ad Astra, BlackkKlansman, and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood all shot Penelope in the last 4 years.

Ad Astra was mostly shot on Arricam's. 

BlakkKlansman was Panavison https://reelchicago.com/article/blackkklansman-dp-shoots-panavision-70s-feel/

Once Upon a Time was Panavision https://www.ibc.org/trends/behind-the-scenes-once-upon-a-time-in-hollywood/3881.article

Edited October 30, 2022 by Tyler Purcell

[Isaac Eastgate]

Yes, panavision have penelopes.

[Isaac Eastgate]

Can't find OUATIHW reference but the rest are all easy to google

First man:

https://ymcinema.com/2018/10/24/first-man-was-shot-on-aaton-penelope-an-2008-model-film-camera/

BlackkKlansman:

https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/blog-post/blackkklansman

Ad astra:

https://ascmag.com/articles/ad-astra

And i missed one, Dont Look Up was also shot on the penelope:

https://ymcinema.com/2022/01/26/dont-look-up-aaton-penelope-and-kowa-cine-promiser-macros-for-the-extreme-closeups/

So looks like penelope is almost more popular now than when it was first released. I'm sure it would get more use if there were more to go around.

[Tyler Purcell]

2 hours ago, Isaac said:

Yes, panavision have penelopes.

Using a camera for specific shots is very different than using the camera for the entire film. From my understanding there are only a hand full of movies that have used the Penelope for the entire production, mainly because the DP had some association to the camera like with First Man, which was 16mm, 35mm (Penelope) and 15 perf 65mm. So not exactly "the entire movie". 

The Aaton 35III was also used in the same capacity, generally for hand held work where the Arricam's are just too heavy. 

From my understanding Linus is currently the only top studio DP to use the Penelope on a regular basis. 

If you read the articles on BlackkKlansman and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, you'll see they only used the Penelope for car interiors on both films. 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Tyler Purcell

[Kemalettin Sert]

Isaac you really think you would get 600 days of rental in 2 years? Really? even if you give that camera for free it wont be out for 600 days trust me.

and all those movies you saying its from Keslow, Panavision and Otto.If someone shooting multimillion dollar $$$ with penelope sorry they are not coming to your home plus boutique rental .

Why do you even trying to convince us? I already know how many times those film cameras go out from every rental company in LA.

Im sure Tyler Purcell is also well informed too.

[Isaac Eastgate]

1 hour ago, Kemalettin Sert said:

Isaac you really think you would get 600 days of rental in 2 years? Really? even if you give that camera for free it wont be out for 600 days trust me.

600 x 1000 is 600,000 dollars, so no. Even 600 x 600 is 360,000.

I never said anything about home boutique rental. The people buying cameras at these prices are not home boutique rental.

[Isaac Eastgate]

3 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Using a camera for specific shots is very different than using the camera for the entire film

Have never said otherwise. But even 2 weeks here and there on different features that need it as a C-cam is big news especially if its cross hiring due to low supply. 

I don't really get what the counterpoint is here other than that market prices are "stupid hype". But wheres the hype, when was the last time film was this popular? Not since they stopped making film cameras forever? Its just a demand issue and the demand is completely real, and additional supply is never coming.

[Tyler Purcell]

15 hours ago, Isaac said:

The people buying cameras at these prices are not home boutique rental.

Most of them are rental houses. But the majority of rental houses don't understand the Penelope, neither do the majority of filmmakers shooting on film. It's a speciality camera, with a specialty purpose. 

[Tyler Purcell]

15 hours ago, Isaac said:

Have never said otherwise. But even 2 weeks here and there on different features that need it as a C-cam is big news especially if its cross hiring due to low supply. 

How is that big news? The Arri 2C, Arri 3 and Aaton 35III still get lots of work as well. 

What productions use as their "C" camera, isn't very interesting. They used the new Logmar 65mm camera on Tenet for a 'C' camera and not a single frame from it wound up in the final movie. I think you'll find that to be the case with MOST 'C' camera footage, it winds up on the cutting room floor. 

15 hours ago, Isaac said:

I don't really get what the counterpoint is here other than that market prices are "stupid hype". But wheres the hype, when was the last time film was this popular? Not since they stopped making film cameras forever? Its just a demand issue and the demand is completely real, and additional supply is never coming.

There is very little demand tho. Maybe the same 5 people globally who didn't get one years ago, who want to experiment. It's not like the XTR Prod, SR3 or 416 demand, that actually exists. I don't understand why 35mm cameras have any value at this point outside of rental houses, but even then it seems like rental houses are selling their cameras again. So who knows. 

[Chris Burke]

The Sound of Metal (2019)  shot on Penelope in 2 perf