Ultra 16mm.... Finally!!

[Ian Cooper]

I'm also in the UK and got a Canon Scoopic on it's way to me. Is there anywhere in the UK I can get the gate modded for Ultra 16 and as asked above can we actually get it processed anywhere over here?

 

Whilst I don't know if he's specifically done that mod before, I would suggest you try contacting Les Bosher. He's a fine camera engineer and I've been quite happy with what he's done for me in the past.

 

As for processing: Whilst it's not something I've specifically gone round the labs enquiring about, I suspect you'll find processing it is possible (it's just 16mm film, although I understand there may be a risk of damaging between the perfs if the machine isn't suitably adjusted/checked), but as for actually getting it telecined... I wouldn't hold your breath!

 

...But do let us know if you find somewhere. Chances are your best/quickest bet is to start contacting the labs yourself, there aren't too many over here to try.

 

Best of luck and hope you enjoy the 'new' camera.

Ian.

[Jim Campbell]

Thanks for the speedy response Ian. Was expecting to login to tumbleweed after posting that last night. I've not even got the camera yet, so I'll wait n see what sort of functioning order it's in once I get it, but I'll contact Lee for sure and see if it's something he can do. And yeah, just asking round the labs is probably the best bet. No point in getting it modded if I can't get it telecined without sending rolls to the States, expensive enough business without all that!

 

Cheers, I'll keep the board posted on my progress.

 

 

Whilst I don't know if he's specifically done that mod before, I would suggest you try contacting Les Bosher. He's a fine camera engineer and I've been quite happy with what he's done for me in the past.

 

As for processing: Whilst it's not something I've specifically gone round the labs enquiring about, I suspect you'll find processing it is possible (it's just 16mm film, although I understand there may be a risk of damaging between the perfs if the machine isn't suitably adjusted/checked), but as for actually getting it telecined... I wouldn't hold your breath!

 

...But do let us know if you find somewhere. Chances are your best/quickest bet is to start contacting the labs yourself, there aren't too many over here to try.

 

Best of luck and hope you enjoy the 'new' camera.

Ian.

[Will Montgomery]

Most transfer houses still look at me like I have two heads when I mention Ultra-16. Seems Cinelicous has the only Spirit gate around that can handle the Ultra-16 format. Of course you can get a little extra on the right side with any Super 16 transfer gate but to actually see the sprocket holes and what's between them is hard to find.

[Robert Houllahan]

 

As for processing: Whilst it's not something I've specifically gone round the labs enquiring about, I suspect you'll find processing it is possible (it's just 16mm film, although I understand there may be a risk of damaging between the perfs if the machine isn't suitably adjusted/checked), but as for actually getting it telecined... I wouldn't hold your breath!

 

To successfully process Ultra-16 you need a Demand Drive film processor,as opposed to a Sprocket Drive, Demand drive has no sprockets and no part of the machine touches the emulsion. Sprocket drive has a sprocket in every rack of the machine with a set of sprockets for 35mm and 16mm you cannot run Ultra-16 on this type of machine, but they are capable of higher speed.

 

 

At Cinelab we have Five film processors and four of them are Demand Drive which is capable of Ultra-16 processing, the one Sprocket Drive machine we have mostly runs 35mm Color Negative.

 

So processing Ultra-16 is not so much about whether or not the film processor is in tune it is about what kind of film processor is being used. See pics of the drives on two of our machines one sprocket where there are clearly two sprocket-ed rollers and the other machine with no sprockets.

 

After processing the film can just be prepped as Super-16 using a split reel and there will be no damage to the image area.

[Lonny]

I had my camera converted to U16 by none other than the master, Bernie O'Dougherty at Super16 Inc. Now that I've shot some test rolls and am looking to get them processed and transferred before shooting a larger project, I find the only place to get U16 transferred is Cinelicious. They do beautiful work and their U16 demo on Vimeo convinced me to send my camera to Bernie, but their pricing confuses me.

 

Their telecine is calculated at a 3:1 ratio so 20 minutes of footage is 60 minutes of telecine? Is this common practice?

 

Yes, "filmmaking is expensive", blah blah. I don't shoot film because I can afford it, I shoot it because I love it! But at this point, I'm not seeing myself ever being able to utilize the Ultra16 on my negatives if Cinelicious is the only place to have it transferred. Maybe I'm out of my league. I'll just forget I have it and shoot R16 and crop it to 1.85:1, I guess. Of course, I'll have it all processed at an "Ultra16 safe" company, like AlphaCine to protect the negative, just in case.

 

Someone straighten me out if I am not understanding the cost of U16 telecine.

 

Thanks!

[Chris Burke]

I had my camera converted to U16 by none other than the master, Bernie O'Dougherty at Super16 Inc. Now that I've shot some test rolls and am looking to get them processed and transferred before shooting a larger project, I find the only place to get U16 transferred is Cinelicious. They do beautiful work and their U16 demo on Vimeo convinced me to send my camera to Bernie, but their pricing confuses me.

 

Their telecine is calculated at a 3:1 ratio so 20 minutes of footage is 60 minutes of telecine? Is this common practice?

 

Yes, "filmmaking is expensive", blah blah. I don't shoot film because I can afford it, I shoot it because I love it! But at this point, I'm not seeing myself ever being able to utilize the Ultra16 on my negatives if Cinelicious is the only place to have it transferred. Maybe I'm out of my league. I'll just forget I have it and shoot R16 and crop it to 1.85:1, I guess. Of course, I'll have it all processed at an "Ultra16 safe" company, like AlphaCine to protect the negative, just in case.

 

Someone straighten me out if I am not understanding the cost of U16 telecine.

 

Thanks!

 

three to one ratio sounds like a best light or even scene to scene grading. You could ask if they will do a one light since this is a test roll. Better yet ask if they will do a flat scan on their Spirit, no grading, straight to hard drive. More labs are starting to process and transfer U16, so ask around.

[Will Montgomery]

More labs are starting to process and transfer U16, so ask around.

Bonolabs (a sponsor of this site) has been doing Ultra16 transfers for many years. They are fairly reasonable. They deliver "flat" transfers where they make sure as much information is available in the file as possible and let you do the color correcting.

 

Cinelicious is unique with their Sprit gate that can handle U16. There are three Spirits in Dallas and none of them can see into the sprockets. One of the Millenniums might however... need to check on that.

 

If cost is an issue, I believe Cinelicious still offers a less expensive alternative on their original telecine machine that is very close to true HD in U16.

[Brian Hatfield]

I am currently in the process of getting ready to have my Bolex REX-5 16mm camera converted to Ultra 16mm. I am going to do it with Bernie at Super16 inc., but before that, I have been testing my Bolex out (without film) for operation with the Tobin TXM-26C crystal sync motor. I actually got the last one they had of these at Tobin Cinema Systems about 2 years ago. The TXM-26C is working OK at 24 fps when all hooked up, which included hooking it up via an adapter at the top with a modified cable to the MM torque motor for the 400ft. magazine.

 

I found out what everyone else has been saying about the Bolex being a loud camera...it surely is! I don't know if I will ever use it for a sync-sound film. But I ran the motor (without film) at all the different speeds and the SYNC-ALARM on the TXM-26C lit up for about 5 seconds while the camera revved up to 48 fps (the highest speed on it). I don't know if this will be a problem when shooting on set, AND with a full 400ft. load of film. I've read in other posts that if you want to shoot high-speed you need to shoot with a 100ft. daylight spool, without the 400ft. magazine attached. On all the other speeds of the motor (7.5, 12, 15, 24, & 30 fps.) the camera synced up within a fraction of a second (with hardly any SYNC-ALARM light).

 

I've also been looking into what I will do when I get my Ultra16 Bolex. Will Cinelicious be the only goto house in the USA for Ultra 16mm transfers to HD? Are there any other post houses that handle U16 film? Are there any other labs other than Alphacine that won't hurt the area in-between the perfs? How much money are we really talking about for a low-low-budget film (around 90 min. in length) if I transfer to HD and edit on a Power Mac G5 2.5 dual, then blow-up to film? (35mm or just project digital)

 

Any help/info would be greatly appreciated.

[flavio filho]

Hi all.

 

Just reviving this post... *Pumping, 1,2,3, Pumping...*

 

So, I'm also looking for a cine lab to Transfer Ultra 16mm footage in Europe in UK.

 

I'm the happy owner of a Bolex REX-5 Ultra 16. Still have another 3 cameras, one Bolex EL and 2 Arri 16s. Looking forward to have them converted to Ultra 16.

It is a large investment (for me) to convert the other 3. And I'm seriously considering selling my 2 Bolex (omg that will hurt) to invest in my 2 Arri 16s Ultra conversion, then buying Crystal Sync Motors, etc., so I could afford to have 2 cameras ready to shoot on Ultra with the best quality I can afford... in FILM.

 

But seems that such investment can let me down... Really hard to find a lab that could do in Europe, since Bono labs and all labs are located in USA.

So, what to do? I've even contacted Tobin in USA, that was really helpful and gave me valuable info about his set of Telecine machines... He somehow said it is possible to have a machine built on that specs (Ultra), that could do the job. I only have to find his email explaining about.

 

Maybe the solution would be start some sort of "Ultra 16mm Society"? Put money together from filmmakers willing to have the Ultra16mm footage and buying a Ultra 16mm telecine?

We could offer the service of Ultra 16 Telecine (also standard 16) at fair prices, AT LEAST pay the debt of the machine (Tobin sells decent transfer machines around U$ 6K), and maybe even start to have PROFIT? That would give London's Soho Labs a headache as probably they would loose some "small" clients (although seems many labs here are closing anyway).

 

I'd do it myself, and for sure would earn some money after a while. Problem is that NOW I don't have the shillings to invest myself alone

Any other ideas to make the dream come true?

 

Remember, the most significant filmmaking "movements" in history started with a few people, and achieved significant expression worldwide. It's not the ambition here as such things are not any new.... BUT... why not simply aim this to EUROPE? Put a "CLOUD" of Ultra 16mm that could make possible to filmmakers achieve the great results they (we) are all looking for? Or at least have our films telecined with almost nothing of money (as owners we would spend electricity and maintenance we could do ourselves)?

 

No.w.here. in London could "host" the telecine as its small and share the profit. Its just a matter to ask.

Ideas, ideas, dreams, I know... But I'm here to discuss, and willing to find a solution that could be FIESABLE for people in Europe.

Edited October 24, 2011 by flavio filho

[Will Montgomery]

I mentioned this format to a colorist here in Dallas and was not surprised to hear that he hadn't heard of it; it's not exactly considered a professional format although it will deliver professional results.

 

He suggested it might be possible to run the 16mm film through a 35mm gate on a Spirit and crop in that way since most Spirits (except for Cinelicious') cannot see between the sprocket holes in 16mm. He said he had done that on another project because the producer wanted to see the sprocket holes. There are severe stability issues however I would think.

[Herbie Pabst]

Cinelab, MA, USA (Cinelab.com) Ultra16 telecine.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Herbie Pabst

[flavio filho]

Thanks, Herbie. The thing is that me and many filmmakers in Europe are looking for a lab in EUROPE that could perform processing/telecine on Ultra 16mm... I know about the 3 in USA that do. But so far we have nothing in Europe (appalling, but we do NOT have).

 

Thanks, Montgomery for the tip on using 35mm heads to crop on 16mm between holes.... I know, I know... All labs say that "not a professional format, blablabla" and that REALLY sucks! With a bit of good will the labs would have a HUGE demand of Ultra 16mm processing and telecine... But they don't go for it... What a shame, such a smal investment for them, that could be a great step for the "filmmaking humanity"...

 

I'm doing the pressure I can here, but that means only asking around (Ultra16, someone?). There might be someone somewhere that would someday try to help. Until there, all we can do is ASK and keep the hope on.

I'm awaiting answers from labs here in London to see if they would do this. I sent an email to 3 of them yesterday, and since I got no answer so far, I believe (hope) they're looking into this issue and see if their lab could do.

I even offered to pay for a test. But so far, no answer. Let's wait.

 

Cinematographers from EUROPE!!! Let's move the labs around here to make us independent of USA on Ultra16!!!

[Will Montgomery]

Honestly though, if you shoot regular 16 well with a slightly lower speed stock, you will get excellent HD results. Ultra is a nice option but if the finishing is a pain in your area then just frame 16:9 on regular 16mm and zoom in. As long as you nail the focus and get close on exposure you'll be fine. Super 16 makes a noticeable difference to me vs. regular 16mm, Ultra less so.

 

The quality of the shot has much more to do with lenses, lighting and film stock then Ultra vs. Regular 16mm.

[Ian Cooper]

...We could offer the service of Ultra 16 Telecine (also standard 16) at fair prices, AT LEAST pay the debt of the machine (Tobin sells decent transfer machines around U$ 6K)...

 

 

I would double check first, but I seem to recall Clive Tobin saying in the past that his machines aren't really suited to transfering negative film, which realistically is what you'd want to be shooting with.

 

Getting reversal movie film processed in the UK is a bit of a non-starter in small quantities.

[flavio filho]

The quality of the shot has much more to do with lenses, lighting and film stock then Ultra vs. Regular 16mm.

 

 

Hi Will.

 

I know lenses are basically everything. But the question here is not being SUPERIOR or not to Regular or Super.

It's simply be able to use the format in a wider aspect ratio as is Ultra, without having to crop, zoom, etc.

And most important, to have more affordable gear to use in that format... Think don't be limited to fine grain film stock is also another advantage.

 

I see the less limitations we have, the better is for the cinematographer.

 

;)

Edited October 26, 2011 by flavio filho

[flavio filho]

I would double check first, but I seem to recall Clive Tobin saying in the past that his machines aren't really suited to transfering negative film, which realistically is what you'd want to be shooting with.

 

Getting reversal movie film processed in the UK is a bit of a non-starter in small quantities.

 

HI Ian.

 

I just checked the email with his answer. He mentions SINCE I order one he could try to adapt it to make it capture the image of the Ultra stock. If it doesn't work, they could get back to the original mount of the telecine machine and sell it.

BUT, this is not possible for me now, to afford one of his machines...

 

Well, it was only an idea that COULD be possible.

But honestly, there's no comparison to have a pro Lab with great colorists.

[Heikki Repo]

HI Ian.

 

I just checked the email with his answer. He mentions SINCE I order one he could try to adapt it to make it capture the image of the Ultra stock. If it doesn't work, they could get back to the original mount of the telecine machine and sell it.

BUT, this is not possible for me now, to afford one of his machines...

 

Well, it was only an idea that COULD be possible.

But honestly, there's no comparison to have a pro Lab with great colorists.

 

A friend of mine has built a 16mm film scanner, which should be able to transfer ultra16 as well. At the moment only the first version is ready, but he is improving the design and hopes to have the second version running by the end of the year. Not a pro lab, but might be one option. Located in Finland. In this web folder http://www.students.tut.fi/~alhonena/scanner/ there are some photos of the system he has built and also some transfer examples (avi files, the film examples he has transferred are rather low quality so not the best examples unfortunately).

 

Specs for the scanner ver. 1:

 

Film: 16 mm bw & colour, positive & negative film.

Scanned area: approx. 15 mm wide area, can zoom in to scan smaller area (2K also for reg16)

Type: Filmi transfer 1 pixel (~15 um) at a time.

Light: RGB LED, R = 2 x 1 W 660 nm, G = 2 x 3 W, B = 2 x 3 W 450 nm.

Gate: Curved to ensure good focus. Film touches only borders.

CCD: Sony ILX751 2048 px BW-CCD.

Dmax: At least 3.2

Fill rate: X 88 %, Y 100%

Resolution: 2048 x 1200 48-bit (16 bit/channel) linear RGB, 1:1:1. ~4000-6000 dpi.

Scan speed: 1,5 seconds per frame.