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Camera Cost


Jay Young

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That $5400 Arri looks amazing!

 

Thanks, it is amazing, and it can be yours!!! ;)

 

Hey guys, this is a ridiculous argument. For some folks, owning a camera makes sense. For some folks, renting a camera makes sense. There's no RIGHT or WRONG answer.

 

If you are shooting a project and the shoot days will be clumped together so you will be renting for blocks of time, renting makes alot of sense. If on the other hand, you are shooting a project where you are catching shots when you can (like Hal described and like alot of folks shooting their own "no-budget feature" end up doing because of volunteer actor and crew schedules), then owning a camera or at least having access to a camera 24/7 makes alot of sense. Different strokes for different folks.

 

Best,

-Tim

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Hal, have you talked to anybody in the stock footage business? It sounds like you might be able to make some money on the kinds of things you're talking about -- rural beauty shots, and maybe even good 35mm of a real twister.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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Hal, have you talked to anybody in the stock footage business? It sounds like you might be able to make some money on the kinds of things you're talking about -- rural beauty shots, and maybe even good 35mm of a real twister.

Thanks for the heads up John. I actually have thought about that but not enough to research stock footage firms. Do you have any recommendations for whom I should talk to?

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Hal, have you talked to anybody in the stock footage business? It sounds like you might be able to make some money on the kinds of things you're talking about -- rural beauty shots, and maybe even good 35mm of a real twister.

 

Well, I think he is too late for "Twister" ;-) IDK how frequently the tornado disaster movie genre is going to recycle.

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It follows the sinking boat and then the burning building.. hey.. didn't we have a sinking boat some years back???... either way, I'd love to see (in person) the shot Hal is describing!

 

oh ya.. don't forget the earthquake films..

 

btw Hal.. since acquiring my time lapse package, I have been stock piling shots for the reason Mr. Sprung mentioned.

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Well, I think he is too late for "Twister" ;-) IDK how frequently the tornado disaster movie genre is going to recycle.

Speaking as one who has seen the real deal, the "twisters" in "Twister" look like someone threw a handful of chocolate syrup in a snow cone machine. I'd give the FX crew a D- on that one.

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Thanks for the heads up John. I actually have thought about that but not enough to research stock footage firms. Do you have any recommendations for whom I should talk to?

 

Talk to Getty. They of course do still images, but they've moved into the stock video market and I know a small prod co that makes tons of money on downloads each month.

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mechanical cameraswill be *ultra*cheap within 12-24 months, as nobody wil buy new ones anymore.

 

dont pay solid money for them, just check what mechanical hasseblads or nikons get on ebay today.

 

:rolleyes:

 

First of all, "mechanical" cameras are already cheap, Eyemos, Bolexes, Bell & Howells.

 

If you are referring to 35mm MP cameras, I highly doubt it.

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Talk to Getty. They of course do still images, but they've moved into the stock video market and I know a small prod co that makes tons of money on downloads each month.

I've been emailing back and forth with someone at Getty. The only content they're interested in representing is HD with HD Cam, or HD Cam SR, 1920x1080 24p deliverables. They're no longer handling negative. Their opinion is the only film content of enough worth to justify the expense of transferring to HD is something exceptional like a tornado or a collection of location specific material like establishers of Oklahoma City, maybe some coverage of the Oklahoma City Memorial, etc. In other words: Specific content that a producer might be looking for, not general rural beauty shots, etc.

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I've been emailing back and forth with someone at Getty. The only content they're interested in representing is HD with HD Cam, or HD Cam SR, 1920x1080 24p deliverables. They're no longer handling negative.

 

Hi Hal,

thanks for sharing this. I'm thinking of looking into this myself since I'll have the opportunity to shoot some nice locations pretty soon. Let us know if you find anything else. Hopefully this will earn you the money for the IIIC!

 

Cheers, Dave

 

PS: Anyone got experience with selling R16 originated stuff? Will they just take S16?

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PS: Anyone got experience with selling R16 originated stuff? Will they just take S16?

I would think R16 would be borderline. R16 shot on slow, low-grain stock might transfer pretty well to HD but probably not high speed stock. I'll bet David Mullen has a good feel for this, I suggest starting a thread in the 16mm Forum asking about R16 and 1920X1080 HD transfers.

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Speaking as one who has seen the real deal, the "twisters" in "Twister" look like someone threw a handful of chocolate syrup in a snow cone machine. I'd give the FX crew a D- on that one.

By the by, just in case I've seduced someone else into the idea of trying to grab tornado footage. I'm a trained National Weather Service storm spotter, both the basic and emergency management courses. I also have a ham license (W5OZ) and can listen and talk to the Norman, OK NWS Storm Spotter network during "exciting" weather. There are safe ways to get in close to tornados, and suicidal ways. The Spotter courses teach you how to distinguish the two!

 

If you want to storm chase, this is the time of year when the NWS offers Skywarn Spotter courses hosted by some of the regional offices. Contact your local NWS for information. Here's what's going on in OKC this week: http://www.norman.noaa.gov/nsww2009/agenda/ . It is getting a bit late for this year's courses so don't procrastinate.

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As to the original post, 35mm motion picture cameras and anamorphic optics are not inexpensive, no matter how old, that plus you're over $100 an hour for a tech to keep it maintained properly. Seriously, an old Konvas with a set of decent anamorphics is way over 10k, and there isn't anything cheaper than that!

 

I might be talked into selling my Konvas 1m and a complete set of 3 square front anamorphics for £5k.

I would even throw in an extra crystal motor.

The 35mm lens has some of the coating missing and one of the lenses has a jammed apeture (although I think it is jammed at something fairly useful if I remember right). The whole package probably needs a good going over by a service tech for clean and lube etc as you might expect.

 

love

 

Freya

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"Jammed at something useful"! :lol:

 

Well, do you have friends in the business to split the cost of a camera package with you? There's an option, right? A few of my friends from school pooled their money for an HVX and it seems to work out for them.

 

I am often astounded at the way people treat film equipment. I can't believe the dirt, rust, corrosion, mold, etc. I had someone tell me once that an Arri 16BL was in "perfect" shape because "we paid to have it overhauled 4 years ago". Meanwhile, it was just chillin in the basement in an old, moldy Pelican case. GOOD WORK, GUYS. LET'S GO DO SOME SHOOTING. :huh:

 

Having said this, if you DO decide to buy a camera, like others have said already, make sure you factor in what it costs to take care of it...and don't wait for small problems to become major repairs. Especially if you end up renting out the camera, you want it to MAKE you more money than it costs you to own. Then it pays for itself, AND pays your rent! Yay!

 

I dunno... I'm just an AC. I don't shoot at this point in my life. So my perspective is different, I guess. If I could afford to own lots of film cameras just because they look pretty, I would... but I can't, so I don't. It's probably easier for me to assume that the only reason you'd invest in a camera of your own, is to make money off it. I understand that not being near a rental house is also a factor in your decision.

 

I would cover all your bases. Call around some rental houses and see what they charge to service/repair various types of cameras. Get a sense of the most it will cost you, like the price for an overhaul. Think about the type of shooting you'll be doing and see what's out there. Do the math for the average amount of film you'd be shooting, processing, transferring. This way you'll have a better idea of the whole picture (no pun intended!) instead of just buying something at a good price and then realizing later that it'll cost you more than that over the years.

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As to the original post, 35mm motion picture cameras and anamorphic optics are not inexpensive, no matter how old, that plus you're over $100 an hour for a tech to keep it maintained properly. Seriously, an old Konvas with a set of decent anamorphics is way over 10k, and there isn't anything cheaper than that!

 

The 16mm Arri S, BL, Bolex route would be much more reasonable. They make great images at very low cost.

 

Bruce Taylor

www.Indi35.com

 

10 grand??!!! :blink: DUDE, don't scare the man. It depends on the anamorphic package and the Konvas. People sorely underestimate the quality of the OCT-18 mount lenses. These lenses are comparable to Schneiders, Ziess and Cookes of the era. 1M and particularly Konvas-1 s can be had for under $700 bucks complete, under $500 for a Konvas-1 which had a rheostat 6 vt wild motor but which also was capable of using s hand crank, a single frame animation crank and a spring motor (if you can EVER find one, I got amazingly lucky and own Allen a debt of gratitude for his generosity in making me a deal on the mine). The 2 piece anamorphics come up from time to time on Ebay and although rare, can be had for maybe $1500 for a small set (35mm, 50mm and 75mm) which is what I have. 1 piece square front anamorphics in an OCT-18 mount to fit the turret Konvi which are optically as good as OCT-19 mount round front anamorphics (some say better) but which are more pron the "breathing" can be had for 500 to a grand each so you would be looking at $1500 to 3 grand for a small set. They also made OCT-18 mount round front anamorphics that go for about the same. They are rare though. (I've been looking for ones over 75mm for a while and a pair came up on Raf's site in I believe 300 and 500mm but were gone before I could buy them.)

 

Now if you want a Kinor 35C of H you are probably looking at 7K to 10K with a lens package, however Ilia has an H for 4K without lenses and Lomo sphericals will run about 3 to 5 hundred each so you could conceivably get a small package for say a grand and would have a sound crystal sync camera for around 5K. Now TRUE in the US, camera service is expensive but Olex and Bruce at Aranda does work on these commiecams at very reasonable rates that makes it well worth the shipping costs involved. In fact if I have a problem, it goes to Bruce or Olex. The MAIN problem with Russian equipment are the old Soviet electronics and those should be up-dated as soon as possible. Bruce's Rotovision 5000 system is gorgeous (I have one on my Kinor 35C) and well worth the expense.

 

At say 5K to 7K for a Kinor camera package plus the electronics upgrade, you would still be looking at well under 10K for a relatively modern camera package capable of doing virtually everything a western package would be able to do. They may not have all the bells and whistles (fixed shutter angles) but they DO have a lot of features and the Konvas is one of the toughest little cameras ever made. Now BECAUSE of the ease with which an OCT-19 mount can be converted to a PL mount, the damn RED guys have pushed the price up on the Lomos, so round front anamorphic lenses have gone through the roof. They can be had for about 1500 to 3 grand each (I've seen them as high as 4 grand but those don't usually sell) STILL compared to what Western anamorphics go for, they're STILL a bargain at that price, 35mm, 50mm and 75mm round fronts (which is what I have) ca be found, the 50 and 75mm are common, the 35mm is a little rare but the 100mm up are impossible to find and if you do find them they're expensive. Lomo also made fast lenses but again a little pricey but still far better than what a Ziess or Cooke of the era would run and just as good in quality ( I own a small set of those as well in 35, 50 and 75mm) .

 

IF you want to own a camera package and shoot a complete feature (which is also my goal) and can ONLY afford 1 package (I have 3, a Kinor 35C, a Kinor 35 PII and a Konvas-1 because they each have different attributes and I felt I would need each of these for what I want to do with Blood Moon Rising, so I sacrificed and was able to get them over a period of time, the little Konvas was my first and it was actually a gift though I've continued to build the package as I can, the PII was the last and I am SOOO looking forward to using it as it is similar to an Aaton and an Eclair ACL in size and shape but does not have to be threaded through the camera so short ends become VERY viable for a feature production. Same thing with the Konvas and IT"S small and light enough to use with my Hollywood Lite steadicam)

 

BUT I digress, IF you can only afford one camera package and are going to shoot a feature HERE are my recommendations. First, forget about 16mm and especially video, unless you have a star attached, it's going to make it much harder to sell. Second if you are going to loop this entire thing (could be a bitch but if you record dialog right after each take like Rodriguez did with El Mariachi, it might make things easier), go with a Konvas-1m for a grand, Arri IIB or C for 15 hundred, a crystal-sync Konvas 2M for 25 hundred or an Arri IIB or C with a blimp and sync motor for 3 to 4 grand if you can find one. If you are going to shoot sound-sync, go with a Kinor 35H (easier to find accessories for than the C model which is slightly quieter at 28 db as opposed to the H which is 32db) at 4 to 10K (price can be all over on these cameras depending on how complete the package is) OR if you come across C in good condition with lenses it may be slightly cheaper because not too many people are as familiar with the C model and are unreasonably afraid of it, or an Arri BL-1 or 2 for about 7 to 15K or an Arri IIB or C with a blimp and sync motor for 3 to 4 grand.

 

This one is last in my book because using a blimp on a camera that must be threaded to shoot a feature is a HUGH pain in the ass especially since they only shoot a max of 400 ft loads and if you are paying your crew, you'll eat up what you saved in camera costs with production time so it's more of a last resort way to go. Now IF you have a film with very limited dialog and sync sound, a blimped Arri would work fine, which is probably why they made blimps for these cameras in the first place. But again, much like the OCT-18 mount lenses, the Arri standard mount lenses go for far less than PL mount lenses and will work for what you're doing so it may be a good way to go.

 

There is of course the Mitchell NC (mos camera), BNC (non-reflex camera) and BNCR which respectively can be had for from $1500 to 6K with a set of Baltars but they are heavy and need a lot of juice to run (97 vts if I remember correctly) but will certainly do the job as they have since the 30s. Then there are the Eclair Camaflex and Aaton 35. The Camaflex is inexpensive at about 15 hundred but strictly an MOS camera like the Konvas and it has a reputation of breaking down a lot. The Aaton is delicate and expensive (I've never seen one on Ebay but somewhere in the 15 to 24K range if I'm not mistaken) and I also believe the older ones are all MOS (though I may be wrong on that one) so for me a Konvas or Arri is a better deal.

 

MY humble opinion so take it for what it's worth. B)

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Having FINALLY scored an Arri IIC, don't settle for a 2B. The viewfinder system is so much improved that even though a 2B with the cardiod pulldown will take the same pictures it just isn't worth the $500-1K saved by buying a 2B. The 2C will take the viewfinder extension, the periscope finder adapter, and the larger ground glass can be changed by the user, with the 2B you're pretty much stuck with what comes on the camera (you can use a 2C door with a little modification but the gg is still smaller). Also my new to me camera is the high-speed version with the turret with the one stainless Arri bayonet mount port, I don't think either of those options exists for the earlier cameras.

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Having FINALLY scored an Arri IIC, don't settle for a 2B. The viewfinder system is so much improved that even though a 2B with the cardiod pulldown will take the same pictures it just isn't worth the $500-1K saved by buying a 2B. The 2C will take the viewfinder extension, the periscope finder adapter, and the larger ground glass can be changed by the user, with the 2B you're pretty much stuck with what comes on the camera (you can use a 2C door with a little modification but the gg is still smaller). Also my new to me camera is the high-speed version with the turret with the one stainless Arri bayonet mount port, I don't think either of those options exists for the earlier cameras.

 

ArriIIC.jpg

Catchall.jpg

 

Still Available ;)

 

 

Best,

-Tim

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IDK. I mean, $10K might be pocket change to some people here, but that is a CAR to everyone else. Honestly, I'd think an HD camera is more versatile in today's market if you are only going to purchase one camera. They'll pay you for HD. They won't pay you for stock and processing.

 

I'd only buy a camera if you had a solid business plan on the table and clientele lined up to use it. Don't put the carriage before the horse. . .

 

If you really really want a 35mm camera, why not go for a cheap Russian MOS one? Let's face it, the nice features on their more-expensive German cousins aren't worth the 9-grand differential to most people. . .

 

I have a beautiful R16 camera, that can be synched and modified for $200 to the emerging U16 format (or S16) for much much more. It cost me $400. . .

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"Jammed at something useful"! :lol:

 

*giggle* Well it is jammed at about f7 or f11 if I remember right. I seem to remember it was about the sweet spot of the lens anyway. I've heard that with the square fronts it's important not to go too far down or too far up, much more so than with other lenses. I can't remember the reasoning now obviously in one direction they go soft but in the other direction there was some other issue???

The ideal would be apparently to use neutral density filters instead. *shrug*

 

Wish I could remember it's been literally nearly 3 years since I shot any film and a lot of stuff is sliding out of my head after all this time sadly.

 

Personally I'd rather have a working apature of course but there we go. :)

 

love

 

Freya

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Also my new to me camera is the high-speed version with the turret with the one stainless Arri bayonet mount port, I don't think either of those options exists for the earlier cameras.

 

I know that the steel bayonet mount was added in the mid-late 1960's, about a decade after the change from B to C.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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I know that the steel bayonet mount was added in the mid-late 1960's, about a decade after the change from B to C.

 

I had that impression but wasn't certain. The camera gods decided to throw me a curve ball. A week after my 2C arrived I was testing a repair on a very funky crystal motor on my 2B and the pulldown screwed up...kinda shafts my plan to either use the 2B as a B cam or sell it. :(

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I'd only buy a camera if you had a solid business plan on the table and clientele lined up to use it. Don't put the carriage before the horse. . .

 

 

Karl,

 

This is a common attitude in the motion picture business. That it's common makes owning equipment a good investment for those who willing to take a calculated risk. I've learned, that mostly, "If you buy it, they will come".

 

And for every purchase I've made I've been warned by others that it's a bad idea, that I'll loose a lot of money. And I'm always thinking that if everyone thinks that way, I'll be the only one with the equipment. No competition!

 

My last big purchase hasn't made much money, but it has brought quite a bit of new work. Ironically, the depreciation on the equipment is less than the loss I've taken in my savings (stocks and house) in the last year:) So what's risky?

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