Low/No Pay projects

[JD Hartman]

Anybody registered on this site: http://www.filmagon.com/index.php?option=com_community&view=videos&task=videodisplay&Itemid=539

 

Good, bogus, so-so?

[John E Clark]

 

Trust fund kids.

 

There's always have been 'trust fund' kids, or if not trust fund, parents who have provided their budding artist child with equipment that less than upper middle class kids never could have access to.

 

Of course in some cases they move on to make something like "Jaws" having started out with a gift from the parents of an 8mm camera...

 

While the digital age has allowed for far wider coverage of 'any kid', at some point those who do have talent and the drive to carry them forward, will do so.

 

As for 'old guys'... the ones you have to look out for are the singled men (mostly in my experience) who have significant disposable income, and buy filmmaking toys to occupy their solitary life...

[Phil Rhodes]

 

 

at some point those who do have talent and the drive to carry them forward, will do so.

 

I'm not sure talent has very much to do with it.

 

Seriously.

 

P

[Bill DiPietra]

Anybody registered on this site: http://www.filmagon.com/index.php?option=com_community&view=videos&task=videodisplay&Itemid=539

 

Good, bogus, so-so?

 

Yup, I'm on there. I attended their networking event to launch the site and I made a lot of contacts. The site is still in the early stages (hence, the "beta" on the logo) but it's a decent one. I do find Stage32 to be far more interactive, though.

[Justin Hayward]

 

I'm not sure talent has very much to do with it.

 

Seriously.

 

P

 

Not true. I used to believe that when I was upset my directing career wasn't moving as fast as I hoped, but now that I'm a professional director (and I say professional meaning directing commercials is my only source of income), I often lose jobs to directors that are flat out more talented than me. They have almost the same background and experience, but their reels, and their ideas are simply better than mine. There is one job in particular that I was really excited about and thought I would kill if given the chance. The agency went with another guy, and when I saw what he did I immediately thought they made the right choice. I was given the same scripts, but I could not have done what he did. Talent counts. And I'm not trying to be modest or fake humble. What I'm always learning is that I have to treat every job or project as if it's my last and to give it everything I'm capable of giving.

[Miguel Angel]

Not true. I used to believe that when I was upset my directing career wasn't moving as fast as I hoped, but now that I'm a professional director (and I say professional meaning directing commercials is my only source of income), I often lose jobs to directors that are flat out more talented than me. They have almost the same background and experience, but their reels, and their ideas are simply better than mine. There is one job in particular that I was really excited about and thought I would kill if given the chance. The agency went with another guy, and when I saw what he did I immediately thought they made the right choice. I was given the same scripts, but I could not have done what he did. Talent counts. And I'm not trying to be modest or fake humble. What I'm always learning is that I have to treat every job or project as if it's my last and to give it everything I'm capable of giving.

And that's absolutely true, if you have talent and you keep working, you will get more talented and talented with the years.

I also learnt a long time ago that it doesn't matter how quick you want your career to progress, it will take the right time, always.

 

Take a look at Chris Doyle or Sean Bobbitt.. When did their careers start?

 

If you keep working (even on small projects) and you don't give up (even if you have to have an "office job" to support your filmmaking career), you will find that, eventually, you will do good things and meet the right people who will offer you the chances you need to stand out

 

Have a lovely weekend.

[Phil Rhodes]

Talent counts

Very possibly, on terms of making you better at the job. My position on this is that except at the very high end, you ability to do the job ranks a poor seventeenth place in comparison to other skills, particularly that nefarious activity often called networking, that is, pretending to like people in order to further one's own self.

 

And yes, I'm entirely serious. Beside the above, I don't think it's too egregious of a generalisation to say that practically everything I've ever worked on in any sort of directly camera-related role did not expect good results, knew that good results were impossible and would not be achieved, and therefore did not select crew on the basis of their ability to achieve good results.

 

At all but the highest levels - those inhabited by the esteemed Mr Mullen, for instance - ability is absolutely irrelevant, at least once you've white balanced correctly.

 

Such is the nature of such a hopelessly oversubscribed industry.

 

P

[Justin Hayward]

At all but the highest levels - those inhabited by the esteemed Mr Mullen, for instance - ability is absolutely irrelevant, at least once you've white balanced correctly.

 

 

I thought I just gave you an example where ability specifically and personally beat me, and I'm no where near the level of David Mullen.

[Phil Rhodes]

Then you're lucky enough to be working at a sufficient high level.

 

Or, sad to say, they weren't really better, they were just more adept at achieving the required level of self-aggrandisement.

[Justin Hayward]

Then you're lucky enough to be working at a sufficient high level.

 

Or, sad to say, they weren't really better, they were just more adept at achieving the required level of self-aggrandisement.

 

Phil,

I'm telling you, I saw his work with my own eyes, he was better. If we really want to move forward, we have to acknowledge that we aren't as good as we think we are.

[Phil Rhodes]

I don't think I'm very good at anything and I notoriously tend toward a similar view of other people.

 

The point is that it really doesn't matter what I out anyone else thinks. It's completely irrelevant.

 

P

[Guest]

 

There's always have been 'trust fund' kids,

 

And yet, Lucas, Spielberg, Cameron, were not trust fund kids as you call them.

 

Can anyone name a successful feature film director who was a "trust fund kid?"

 

R,

[Phil Rhodes]

The point is, Richard, that I'm never going to work for anyone you'd consider a successful director. I'm just going to be stuck with endless irritating trust fund kids.

 

P

[Satsuki Murashige]

My position on this is that except at the very high end, you ability to do the job ranks a poor seventeenth place in comparison to other skills, particularly that nefarious activity often called networking, that is, pretending to like people in order to further one's own self.

P

Well, you do need *some* social skills to get by. If people are put off by you for whatever reason, then it doesn't matter how talented you are - they will call someone else. I've noticed that otherwise competent crew members who frequently complain about lack of work are often socially awkward at best and in need of a major attitude adjustment at worst. Everyone, including me, is guilty of this at some point. We all get burnt out and forget how lucky we are to be making images for a living instead of working 9-5 filling out TPS reports. 'Networking' is mainly just being a decent human being around your co-workers and doing your job well with a minimum of fuss. Talent on top of that is just a bonus.

[Phil Rhodes]

Well, you do need *some* social skills to get by.

Oh bugger.

[Freya Black]

 

And yet, Lucas, Spielberg, Cameron, were not trust fund kids as you call them.

 

Can anyone name a successful feature film director who was a "trust fund kid?"

 

R,

 

Off the top of my head Tom Hooper.

 

There are tons of other examples tho.

I agree tho that often a lot of the work isn't that memorable, so successful might be pushing it on your terms I suspect but here in the UK that kinda stuff is on the TV all the time.

 

Freya

[Tyler Purcell]

And yet, Lucas, Spielberg, Cameron, were not trust fund kids as you call them.

Spielberg had the best connections though. His student film Amblin was the only one of those to be shot in 35mm.

 

 

Can anyone name a successful feature film director who was a "trust fund kid?"

Not quite trust fund, but two of my favorites; Christopher Nolen and Paul Thomas Anderson, had lots of money. Neither one of them bought cameras though! LOL :)

[Albion Hockney]

A large percentage of successful artists come from upper middle class or wealthy families. Of that group many also have parents/family who work in the world they become successful in as well.... or at the very least are connected to some liberal/art leaning crowd. Half of my friends who are interesting/successful come from worlds like these and it is no coincidence. I myself have some of that, although not quiet as much as many others. That's how things are. Its called privilege, welcome to society haha.

 

That is not to say you can't get in from the outside, but its of course gradually harder depending on how far away you are from that world to start with.

 

If your a poor kid and no one you know is interested in art that gap is going to be a lot bigger for some kid whose upper middle class and has a mom who does theater and a father who was a camera operator for 30 years or something.

 

that said regardless of your starting point eventually comes the day you need to "put up or shut up" and if your no good your no good, but I think its important to note that very little of this stuff is some god given natural talent. It comes from having a very strong passion for making movies and wanting to learn how to do it. People coming from a place of privilege with art/culture around them are much more likely to develop those skills.

 

 

the larger point of all of this is that Connections and Skills usually coincide. They are not mutually exclusive at all.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Albion Hockney

[Tyler Purcell]

That is not to say you can't get in from the outside, but its of course gradually harder depending on how far away you are from that world to start with.

It's a lot harder… I didn't have a dime growing up in the north east and was damn lucky to get a scholarship to film school, where I had free-reign of their equipment stash. Without that and some luck, there is no way I could have made the precipitous move to Hollywood. Still, it's been a difficult road, more then a decade since landing here. It's taken me almost 30 years to finally take my childhood dreams and turn them into reality. Fortunately, I've arrived at a time where technology dominates and that's enabled me to produce without the expense previous generations endured.

 

It comes from having a very strong passion for making movies and wanting to learn how to do it.

Yep, you've gotta love it or you're in the wrong business.

[Justin Hayward]

For the record, my father is a mailman that raised five kids, so...

 

About a year ago I was directing a commercial where the key grip recognized me. He was the same key grip on one of my first PA jobs years ago. He asked me how I was able to move into directing as if I had some trick up my sleeve. I had to think about a sec, cause I didn't really know. I told him I shot a bunch of my own crap until people took notice and eventually paid me to make their crap look like my crap, and it only took me about 15 years of working in almost every department of production and shooting loads of my own projects, all of which I was able to do through favors earned by working with many different folks. Not to mention watching trillions of movies multiple times any way possible from about the age of 5 when I recognized what a movie was, reading as many filmmaking books as I can fit in my house, just trying to absorb the craft as well as I could. But that's about it.

 

Of course, I still often lose jobs to directors that are simply more talented than me. So I just don't like this idea that the majority of people making a living as filmmakers must have somehow cheated the system. I know a lot of those people. They weren't handed their careers on a silver platter. They are actually talented individuals that deserve what they are given.

[Phil Rhodes]

So I just don't like this idea that the majority of people making a living as filmmakers must have somehow cheated the system

 

I didn't say I liked it.

 

In any case, this is based on a misapprehension about what the system, if any, actually is. The idea you seem to be advancing is that said systems promotes people with ability to the benefit of productions. I think, conversely, that the system promotes sycophants to the benefit of themselves. The system of which I speak, by the way, applies to life, not just film and television work, hence my extremely negative view of human beings in general.

 

There are, of course, shining counterexamples, and I'm generalising horribly - but it's too frequently true to overlook.

 

P

[Guest]

I'm just going to be stuck with endless irritating trust fund kids.

Hey, do any of them want to invest in film?

 

R,

[Satsuki Murashige]

Phil, I like to think of you as the Severus Snape of our forum. :)

[Phil Rhodes]

[Justin Hayward]

 

I didn't say I liked it.

 

In any case, this is based on a misapprehension about what the system, if any, actually is. The idea you seem to be advancing is that said systems promotes people with ability to the benefit of productions. I think, conversely, that the system promotes sycophants to the benefit of themselves. The system of which I speak, by the way, applies to life, not just film and television work, hence my extremely negative view of human beings in general.

 

There are, of course, shining counterexamples, and I'm generalising horribly - but it's too frequently true to overlook.

 

P

 

Did I say you "liked" something?