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Nick Norton

85B vs. 85

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So, before i can afford a proper mattebox, i have decided to purchase some screw on 85B filters to use Tungsten Film in Daylight.

 

I understand Kodak rates the 500T film as 320 with an 85 filter, but how about an 85B?

 

On Kodak's site is says to rate the 500 stock at 200 with an 85B... is this correct?

 

 

 

Also, i understand the 85 filter is a more common tool to correct Tungsten film to be shot in Daylight... but isn't the correct filtration 5500k to 3200k... which an 85B provides? Why is the 85 so popular?

 

 

Thanks-

Nicholas

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85 and 85B are both 2/3 stop compensation. There's only a very slight difference between the two, which when shooting color negative not really noticeable. You may see the difference when shooting reversal film. I think the 85 is slightly cooler by around 200k.

 

500T with an 85B should be rated at 320ASA. Can you link to the Kodak site that says otherwise?

 

Oftentimes, an 85B filter is just referred to as an 85 for simplicity. So you may hear the DP call for an "85" but he may really mean "85B" and the 1st knows what he means.

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I understand Kodak rates the 500T film as 320 with an 85 filter, but how about an 85B?

 

On Kodak's site is says to rate the 500 stock at 200 with an 85B... is this correct?

 

Nick its the 85b that's rated as 200 asa the 85 is 320.

 

Satsuki the 85 is 500k less than the 85b which is 5500k

 

Although it's on Kodaks site it seems quite a difference in exposure for those two filters though.

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Nick its the 85b that's rated as 200 asa the 85 is 320.

 

Satsuki the 85 is 500k less than the 85b which is 5500k

What - REALLY??!!

 

I've been using the 85B for years at 2/3 stop compensation for reversal film, you're telling me I've been underexposing by an additional 2/3 stop? I find that really hard to believe...

 

My Kodak Cinematographer's Field Guide says the 85 is 5500k to 3400k and 2/3 stop, whereas the 85B is 5500k to 3200k and 2/3 stop. Looking at my Samuelson's Manual, it shows slightly less than 0.1 stop more light loss for the 85B, which being a slightly stronger amber filter would make sense to me. That's very close to the 85 not to be noticeable with color neg. With reversal, maybe rating at 250ASA would be more correct. I definitely don't understand Kodak saying 200ASA though, that's 1 1/3 stops light loss! I think it must be a typo on Kodak's part...

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Some filter makers call the 85A and 85 the same thing -- it was designed for "Type A" film balanced for 3400K (photofloods) and corrects 5500K to 3400K. (Some filter makers seem to make both an 85 and 85A that are different, or just an 85A or just an 85, but not both.)

 

The 85B is for "Type B" film and corrects 5500K to 3200K.

 

So technically the 85B is the correct filter to correct daylight for tungsten stock. However, nowadays "85" is just a shorthand for 85B, though I'm sure both filters are used interchangeably half the time and no one pays attention.

 

As for filter factor, most people use a 2/3-stop compensation for either the 85A or 85B... however, if you've ever metered these filters yourself, you'd see that an 85B is more like a 3/4-stop compensation (and the 81EF is about a 1/2-stop.) But since meters work in 1/3-stop increments in terms of ASA values, it's hard to program a 1/2-stop or 3/4-stop adjustment.

 

I've never heard that a 500 ASA film with an 85B would be 200 ASA, that would be 1 1/3-stops.

 

The old Harrison chart that lists filters by their transmission or density says that the 85 transmits 70% and the 85B transmits 60% -- I assume a filter that cuts the light by one-stop would be one that transmits 50%, and clear glass would be near 100%.

 

Don't know why Kodak says to use the Wratten 85B gel with White Flame Arcs, at 200 ASA, but use the Wratten 85 with 5500K at 320 ASA.

 

You can read Tiffen's definition of the 85B filter here:

http://www.tiffen.com/displayproduct.html?...p;itemnum=8285B

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So, before i can afford a proper mattebox

 

Hey Nick, have you seen these? http://www.thecinecity.com/tcc/home.php?cat=270

 

There's obviously a bit cheap and made for video cameras but I have one and it fits on my ACL with a little bit of fudging. I got it mainly so I could use standard 4x4 filters - especially since my collection of lenses are all different sizes and don't take the same filters.

Edited by Jason Hinkle

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~ 1 printer light point worth of difference I'd bet

 

You could _breathe_ on the Hue control on a Davinci and turn one into the other

 

-Sam

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I've never heard that a 500 ASA film with an 85B would be 200 ASA, that would be 1 1/3-stops.

 

I've been testing kodak 7219 today and used an 85b with the 54 iscorama anamorph attached to a 16mm mark one prime. Because the anamorph takes a third of a stop and kodak says to rate is as 200asa with an 85b I've rated it 160 asa to include the anamorph. Hope its going to be okay!

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I believe it was Kodak who recommended using the 85 for their neg stocks and the 85B for their reversal stocks. You can use the latter for both, although to my eye flesh tones did appear warmer than expected in the final prints after the grade compared to just using an 85 filter.

 

I know some people used to shoot daylight using an 81EF because they felt the neg stocks looked too warm with the 85.

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I've been testing kodak 7219 today and used an 85b with the 54 iscorama anamorph attached to a 16mm mark one prime. Because the anamorph takes a third of a stop and kodak says to rate is as 200asa with an 85b I've rated it 160 asa to include the anamorph. Hope its going to be okay!

 

 

It doesn't hurt to rate 500T at 200 ASA with an 85B, but as I said, the 85B does not lose 1 1/3-stops of light -- you can check it yourself.

 

Look it's very simple:

 

85B: 5500K to 3200K

85: 5500K to 3400K

 

You can do whatever you want with that info. But "photographic daylight" is generally 5500K (according to Kodak) and 500T stock is balanced for 3200K, so the 85B filter is the correct filter to use. Hence why Super-8 cameras, which were built back when we had Type A color reversal stocks balanced for 3400K (photofloods) such as K40T or E160T, have a built-in 85 filter, which is not quite enough of a correction for the new Type B tungsten stocks sold for Super-8 -- technically it should be an 85B.

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It doesn't hurt to rate 500T at 200 ASA with an 85B, but as I said, the 85B does not lose 1 1/3-stops of light -- you can check it yourself.

 

Look it's very simple:

 

85B: 5500K to 3200K

85: 5500K to 3400K

 

Which is on page 74 of your Cinematography book! Third edition. The 85 also known sometimes as the 85A. I often read this.

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I've been testing kodak 7219 today and used an 85b with the 54 iscorama anamorph attached to a 16mm mark one prime. Because the anamorph takes a third of a stop and kodak says to rate is as 200asa with an 85b I've rated it 160 asa to include the anamorph. Hope its going to be okay!

Oh dear I misread kodaks exposure index for 3200 to 5500. I saw the 85 filter and the 85b underneath. I don't think that's altogether my fault though. Kodak should have called the 85 an 85b even if most would know it isnt. I'm new to this and taking everything at face value. So I have wrongly set my exposure at 200 instead of 320 Oh well should be alright and that is the purpose of testing! I thought it didnt sound right but I should have read it more carefully. Sorry for any confusion. At least now I know that many will call an 85b an 85 as shorthand. One to watch then.

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I remember that i've used / compared the 85A, B and C on 16mm Ektachrome reversal film. I compensated half a stop in addition (A half, B one, C one and a half).

This window scene had a cloudy afternoon in late summer. This is a subjective impression: I found the B and C too warm as a result so I avoid color filtering as good as i can.

Allow me one question to the experts: How important is color filtering when using the newer Neg stocks (like Vision3)? Skip completely and leave it to colortiming?

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Always best to color correct with filters when needed, unless you're going for an effect in my opinion. This saves you form the possibility of over-exposing one layer of the film which then makes it harder to correct in the Telecine.

Now, that being said, most of the time you'll be fine if you don't. BUT, if you get it right on the day, you save time, which is money in the telecine because you're not trying to balance something to look "right."

That's my opinion at least.

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Kodak should have called the 85 an 85b even if most would know it isnt.

Nope still wrong they must mean an 85 for 3200 to 5500 because as Brian pointed out they recommend an 85 for negative.

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Even if 85B is the correct filter for converting Tungsten 3400 K° stock to daylight 5500 K° (or in some cases, to even 'higher'/cooler light, up to 6000 K°), I think it makes good sense to use the 85A filter for the negative stocks. I very often see scans or video clips from negative stocks, that I personally think look too warm or brownish. A difference of 200 K° must be very easy to correct in post if you are deliberately color-grading your footage anyway.

Furtermore, if there is a very slight difference in density between the two filters, negative stock will only benefit from getting a little bit more light. In fact, many experienced cinematographers recommend that you overexpose by 1/3 of a stop to get a slightly denser, richer and slightly more contrasty negative, with a grain structure that is 'tighter', especially in the shadows. Just as David says in his post above (200 ASA exposure for 7219 Vision3 500T with an 85B).

 

If I am to shoot with Ektachrome reversal films, on the other hand, I would definately choose the 85B filter, as these films often are a bit blueish (especially in the shadows on a bright sunny day) - in fact, in the middle of the day (noon), Ektachrome might even benefit from further filtration (81 series gelatine filters 81, 81A, 81B, to 81EF). In the early morning or late in the evening, though, an 85A (or even an 85C filter) might be better.

To determine this more exactly, the use of a color temperature meter (Minolta or Gossen) could be better than just guessing the values.

 

Bengt F,

photographer

Edited by Bengt Freden

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Thanks Bengt

 

Yes I'm quite happy with the situation. I'm a little annoyed with myself for nearly messing up. But Im happy to say that it should actually look better if the lab correct it! Which of course I'm sure they will.

 

Mark

Edited by Mark Williams

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I think the differences are really overstated

 

200K difference in the target is visible but that's not what you're asking the filter to do, 5500K is a kind of generalization for daylight, there's far more than 200K difference between shooting at noon an 5 PM, there can be 2000K difference going to full shade etc etc

 

-Sam

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I think the differences are really overstated

 

200K difference in the target is visible but that's not what you're asking the filter to do, 5500K is a kind of generalization for daylight, there's far more than 200K difference between shooting at noon an 5 PM, there can be 2000K difference going to full shade etc etc

 

-Sam

 

I did think about taking colour temperature readings and using the correct filter for that I shot it at about 11am and as I was using an iscorama anamorphic lens with a 95mm thread and no 85 matte box, I used gaffer tape to fix the 85 and because I was testing other lenses, to make it easier I'd just stick with the 85. Although in future thats what I would do try to take a reading and use the correct filter unless of course I want a magic hour type shot etc.

 

Mark

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Thanks Bengt

Yes I'm quite happy with the situation. I'm a little annoyed with myself for nearly messing up. But Im happy to say that it should actually look better if the lab correct it! Which of course I'm sure they will.

Mark

 

Mark,

If you´d like to complicate the situation even further, take a standard Wratten '85' filter from 10 different manufacturers (say, Kodak, TIFFEN, Harrison & Harrison, Schneider-B+W, Formatt, Soligor, Hoya, Cokin . . . ) and, most likely, you will get close to 10 different color shades (and densities), some orange, some pinkish-orange, some brown-orange, some red-orange. I am comparing some of these at the moment and I am slowly turning grey . . .

 

I suppose it would be best to choose ONE really good quality filter (B+W, for example), in a thin (slim) ring, that is fully coated and AR-treated, have THE SAME filter in the different sizes you need, and then perform your own tests for each film stock. Preferrably with a standard Gretag-Macbeth Color Checker board (next to the slate?) in the beginning of EVERY new scene. If you combine it with a Kodak Grey Card PLUS of 18% 'medium' grey plus black and white, the scanner operator or colorist will probably love you, because he (or she) will have a norm to work to. Or at least, something to start from - the rest is personal preference, for contrast, color saturation, color balance, a 'warm' or 'cool' feel, etc, etc.

 

Best regards,

Bengt F ;)

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Mark,

If you´d like to complicate the situation even further, take a standard Wratten '85' filter from 10 different manufacturers (say, Kodak, TIFFEN, Harrison & Harrison, Schneider-B+W, Formatt, Soligor, Hoya, Cokin . . . ) and, most likely, you will get close to 10 different color shades (and densities), some orange, some pinkish-orange, some brown-orange, some red-orange. I am comparing some of these at the moment and I am slowly turning grey . . .

 

Yes I've noticed that too. I'm not going to let that worry me though. For my workflow It's a simple task to colour balance once it's in the digital domain but I think its right to try and get close before you get into post.

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One day I'll look back on all these simple questions with disgust, I know it...

 

Anyway:

 

So I'm shooting outside with tungsten film: 7293. Kodak writes that the EI bumps down from 200 to 125 when using an 85 orange filter.

 

So, I dial the ASA on my Sekonic L-398 light meter to 125 and take a reading to manage the aperture.

 

Do I take open up another 2/3 stop, or is that why I adjusted the EI to begin with?

 

And... is the exposure index synonymous with ASA?

Edited by Mark A. Rapp

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Do I take open up another 2/3 stop, or is that why I adjusted the EI to begin with?

 

 

No, you've already compensated for the 85 by adjusting the ISO on your meter.

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