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Lasse Roedtnes

"New" super-8 camera to market

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And the Matt's film comes to the end with many applauses!

 

Long live Matt!

 

I wish Nikon would release more cameras in that line or further models like having the Beaulieu and Leicina's latest features. Unfortunately they have stopped making the movie cameras. The R series made for serious amateur filmakers in mind that time. I wish I could have a Nikon R1X (there is no such model) with a folding handgrip and changeable lens system like ZC1000 has...

 

No doubt my one complaint about the R10 is the fixed hand grips and stupid battery holder. So many people lost the battery holder over the years. Lots of perfectly fine R10's ended up thrown away because the holder was gone and the owners decided not to sell the camera itself thinking it was useless. :(

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When you run the camera very first time after you've dropped the film in, lateral guides and claw engage film in seconds. That's why it is recommended to rotate the cartridge's take-up spindle forward direction until it stops prior to drop in.

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No doubt my one complaint about the R10 is the fixed hand grips and stupid battery holder. So many people lost the battery holder over the years. Lots of perfectly fine R10's ended up thrown away because the holder was gone and the owners decided not to sell the camera itself thinking it was useless. :(

 

Matt, I did not give the battery holder when I sold my disassembled R8 I told before, because its exactly the same with the R10's. Recently, I did a bench running for all my stuff (regularly I do). I have seen that the camera is not working. Then I replaced the holder, and it worked. I cleaned the contacts of the problematic one, now it seems to be OK, too. Probably a corrosion causes this despite I never leave batteries.

 

The replaceable battery holders help a lot when a battery leakage arises.

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ekwa.png

Here's a quick drawing I made. I hope it'll help a better understanding of the design.

 

In figure 1, our pressure pad is pushing the film towards the chamber opening, thus preventing fogging as said. The arrow represent action of the spring.

 

Fig. 2 : When inserted, the cameras gate, protruding inside the chamber, push back the film and with it the pressure pad. The film is resting against its film guide to reduce friction during pull down.

 

Fig. 3 : How the film gate should look if it permitted the film to run freely. The pressure pad should rest on wider guides than those we actually observe.

 

I gave you a little bonus to see the action of side clips on film.

 

M. Seguin, I think your confusion came in the misinterpretation of the role of the film guides. If they were designed to push the pad away from the film, there would have been wider. Or you can see that they're actually in the path of the pull down claw. As the claw engages in the film perforations, those guide are then situated where those perforations are. So the film effectively rests against those guides, maintained on its back by the pressure pad.

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Tom, sorry for the troll comment, but it feels just unreal if so many tangible and verifyable facts are simply ignored.I just made a little video for you. You can reproduce this test yourself easily.

Here is the pressure plate of a Kodak Cartridge, freshly extracted for you:

2013-11-25%20at%2017.11.png

Here I am extracting a film gate from a Frankenstein Canon 310xl just for you:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/b1g4hzucy8dkq2u/2013-11-25%20at%2017.13.png

This shows the two parts before forming a film channel:

2013-11-25%20at%2017.16.png

Note you can actually SEE the film channel when pressing them together:

2013-11-25%20at%2017.15.png

And finally here you can see that the film runs "free" through it. Note the swiss spring scale in the second scene and see how free "free" is. It needs less than 5 cN to pull the film through even though my finger's pressure was much higher than that from the cartridge spring:

I hope we can finally close this discussion down now once and forever. The pressure pad is NOT a pressure plate and does not work the same way a pressure plate does. Period.

 

(Imagine Queen's "Under Pressure" as Soundtrack underneath the video, please)

Edited by Friedemann Wachsmuth
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To add to Friedemann's excellent demonstration, I would like to suggest you look over this excellent article by the great Francis Williams in Movie Magazine Magazine (1979) which explains well the interaction between the cartridge and the film camera gate:

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0loCfjqNfa0bXVNRGZUSDExN2M/edit

 

Jean-Louis

Edited by Jean-Louis Seguin
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I see what you mean. My bad, I must admit I did not saw those little elevated parts. At last I can see some serious facts ! But still, film should not move this freely, the little support you show shouldn't exceed this much the film's thickness. What you show here is a very low tolerance plastic molded gate. No wonder film will have "breathing" problem. Now, make the same experiment with a Beaulieu gate. You will notice that with tight tolerance, well machined metal gates, the film won't move this freely. Actually, I just measured the difference of thickness between the film guides and the pad resting support, it's only 0.14mm, the exact thickness of acetate based color film. So, on these camera, the pressure pad will play his role, ensuring film does not deviate in depth from film plane with,thanks to those little supports you showed me, the less friction possible. This is certainly why the sharpest super 8 test results are with Beaulieu cameras. So, my point still is that if you are within the right tolerances, everything should work fine.

 

And if you still want a "true" pressure plate, you can do a little grinding like suggested on the article, it should do the trick !

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Oh, and I forgot to say... Film isn't totally free even with bigger tolerance ! As explained in the wonderful article Jean Louis provided us, the film's natural curl provides the necessary friction to stay in place. Again, it validates what I was saying : the smaller the format, the easier it is to achieve the wanted function. So when you say the film should move freely, it's again a big NO ! If it does, the film would always be blurry...

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Thanks Erkan ! This topic really is becoming interesting !

 

What I learned from Jean Louis article is really new to me, I had never seen this simple explication anywhere before ! I didn't suspect film could use its curling tendency to hold himself in place during exposure. Thank you deeply again Jean Louis !

 

I think that the lesson of the day is that we need to share more serious information !

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I'd suggest to let this thread return to the Logmar Camera s topic.

Posting specs (and wild assumptions about specs) should get its own thread.

Edited by Friedemann Wachsmuth
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OK, that's right, Friedemann.

 

Tom, I will email you the pages I have translated, contains a lot of interesting stuff from the latest and newest Russian books I have, written by the Prof.s of Cinema Engineering....

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To The Members Of This Forum:


The amount of passionate back and forth on this thread is impressive. The dream of professional Super 8 technology is alive and well. The amount of detailed infor regarding the Kodak co-axial cartridge is short of breathtaking. We are ready for a newly engineered Super 8 camera. Let the passionate small format image making begin.



To Tom,


In my original reply I did not ascertain nor posit a lack of technical experience on your part with specific 16mm camera platforms. I contemplated a post detailing a lengthly list of my Super 8, UltraPan 8 2.8/3.1 and 16mm actual shooting experience and perhaps my passion for camera engineering excellence. Or details of my handheld 14 perf 70mm camera but I have decided against it. Some of my personal cameras are double/single pin registered most are not. Much of my work and experiments are online (Vimeo). Including reperfed V3 50D color negative shot in a specially modifed 8mm camera sans pin registration.


I am personally striving for technical simplicity in my methodologies and shooting. The Kodak engineered cartridge is over engineered and contains too many plastic interdependent parts. My preference is for the classic simplicity of co-axial magazines or supply/take-up spools in 8/16/35/70 cameras with a properly machined pressure/shuttle gate with pin registration. Most of my past work to date has been absent the coveted pin. I will be undertaking tests and producing films with noted pin registration in the coming year, e.g. Arri SR2, Aaton XTR Prod (absent pin), Arri III/BL4, Photo-Sonics 16mm A500, Photo-Sonics 70mm-14S, etc.


Cheers!


Nicholas


PS: And if I am "lucky" the hotly anticipated and the first newly engineered Super 8 camera in 32 years!

Edited by Nicholas Kovats
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But I feel having those specs helps us better understand design principles and myths about super 8. I really feel that if such articles emerged a long time ago, Lasse wouldn't have go through the trouble of making feeding sprockets and separate pressure plate.

 

Friedemann, really, I hope you have no hard feelings towards me, but you understand that when you said such things as "film is moving freely" and "gates are curved", I find it hard to believe you ? You were right that there was a gap, but all the explanations you gave were wrong, so it was difficult for me to understand. Again, I wish so much Jean Louis document would have been much more spreader on the net earlier so everyone could actually understand the design principles.

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Tom,

 

my last comment on this: I do not have any hard feelings, but please read carefully if you get thorough responses here. Ignoring them and repeating false claims is a bit tiring. Again, my explanations re this were all correct and still are (except one wrong number and the Leicina as a wrong example).

 

The M4 and others still intentionally bend the film concave, not all film has the curling tendency (e.g. Estar/PE is much more flat), some film tends to get concave or convex depending on humidity. The 0.2mm channel width are still not "tolerance" but are made by design. The "curling friction" can not provide sufficient registration ever, as you can see in 60 if not 80% of all S8 films. Also, what my little video for you shows happens with ANY gate and it has nothing to do with it being a Canon gate. IT IS BY DESIGN. Is this so hard to believe? If your Beaulieu has a 0.14mm channel, your gate is broken or you are measuring wrong. Also, modern film stock is 0.15 or 0.16 and has no remjet. Last but not least, the Beaulieu cameras are not at all the "sharpest cameras" per se. Not even if you own one!

 

Most important: There is no way to improve the cartridge in a way that overcomes all the conceptual flaws of its concept. Even with titanium ball gearings and 0.1µm precision parts there would be no sprocket gear, no loops, and due to a changing pull-torque over the runtime of the film no guarantee ever for a good registration. That is why pros love DS8 and even R8 is often looking superior.

 

Deal with it! The cartridge design is way too complicated and full of flaws. It is easy to use and CAN bring good results, but the only way to circumvent these nasty design flaws is and was to introduce what all other pro cameras have: Loops, a pressure plate, sprocket gears and here even a true pin registering. This has been suggested and asked for by hundreds if not thousands of experts in the past 40 years. Only now it becomes a reality.

 

Please accept this finally as a fact. If you don't believe it, do some actual research, use the search function of this forum, read patents and (better) SMTPE-specs, also books. Super 8 and it's erratic cartridge have been discussed a lot yet. It does not help to just negate all facts and the experience of others and just claim that they are made up and neither the presence nor the material of pressure plates (wood? rly?) would matter. That is just foolish.

 

Thanks you for understanding – and again, I sincerely apologize for considering you briefly as a troll.

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To get back to the topic:

 

I did a double exposure crosshair test with the Logmar Prototype today. I used the most stubborn film stock I had, a very early Velvia 50, and exposed 20ft of it from a sturdy tripod with 8, 12, 16, 25 and 32 fps, pointig to the crosshair. I then rewound the film in the darkroom and transplanted it into an identical Kodak cartridge to expose it again with a slight offset, this time going down from 32 to 8 fps.

The film is currently on the drying rack, I'll check the results tomorrow. Very curious yet!

 

The crosshair will be a bit dim since I forgot to crank up my monitor before exposure, but that should be irrelevant for judging on registration.

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Friedemann,

 

I couldn't have worded your final post regarding the Super 8 cartridge any better. That about sums up the whole thing including the cartridge, my angst with it, my love of it and my frustration with this whole thread. Craziness!

 

Since I likely won't be able to afford this lovely new camera, I may have to brake out my old Regular 8mm Bolex so I can at least come close the the steady image and consistent focus offered by the real gate, pressure plate and loops system.

 

Are you going to be able to post your Velvia test results? I'm sure someone will be willing to offer up a high-end scan.

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Hey David,

 

sure, but indeed I don't have a scanning facility. The crosshairs I could tape right of the wall though, hotspot and high contrast should not matter here. :)

 

And: The 8mm Bolexes are simply fantastic. E100D is still available in Double-8 (and relatively cheap), so is Plus-X (at Wittner). Aviphot Chrome 200 D is coming soon, though that will be a very grainy, but charming experience...

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What about lenses? That's another good advantage is being able to pick your lenses, especially primes. It's just a matter of choosing ones that will work with an S8 frame. They state that there are many different lenses out there that will work, but how do you know? I'm curious about the H8 Switar primes. They are fast and a good wide angle prime will allow really close shots.

 

Regardless of what this camera offers, I think one of the biggest assets to it will be the Vision3 stocks. I've just been playing around with some in my studio they look incredible in S8. The flexibility that you have in NLE image tweaking is light years beyond working with reversal. It's also easy to pop the colors and contrast to a reversal film look without the inherent reversal trappings. I've gotten more familiar with noise reduction and sharpening lately to where I can get these stocks looking super clean and very sharp too. The key point is that you can serve it up any way you like it with all the head room and performance that you get. Looking and what I can get out of my standard cameras has me real optimistic about what I can produce with a max 8, pin registered, prime lens image.

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Odd that this ancient article was never was brought up before in the registration and breathing discussions in all this time I have been visiting ciné fora!

It is clear writing and explains all effectively.

It makes clear the NIKON micro gate ramps help forcing the film to the far end of the channel. It is also clear the NIKON stop pin is an invention which works and explains the far better registration on these.

 

Considering the OT Logmar it makes one wonder why it doesn't expose a dot at the side of the frame like the MEKEL SP does? This would make teleciné so much easier.

It would require very little hardware since the camera is already so very much electronic and digital. And putting it in when building from scrap is really a minor thing?

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Considering the OT Logmar it makes one wonder why it doesn't expose a dot at the side of the frame like the MEKEL SP does? This would make teleciné so much easier.

It would require very little hardware since the camera is already so very much electronic and digital. And putting it in when building from scrap is really a minor thing?

 

I agree with Andries totally!

 

The price will be around 2500Euros as far as I remember.

 

I want to start a wave in Turkey possibly in Music Videos. In the past very few were tried, but never got so popular. I'll try to convince some rental houses already spend a lot of bucks for the camera equipment they rent. By the way, I guess that individuals will not spend money for individual purchases...

Edited by Erkan Umut

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