Arri Alexa or Red epic Dragon? Which to buy....

[Matthew Glover]

I am torn between these 2. I really like the look of the Alexa (it looks more like "film" to me) but the Dragons price is calling my name seriously. The dynamic range is amazing as is the DR of the Alexa. What do you guys think?

[Guy Bodart]

If you want to look like film, only film can gives you that look.Res Epix or Alexa still digital crap.

[David Mullen ASC]

Now that it seems like the Alexa no longer has the edge on dynamic range over the Dragon sensor, it seems to me that the Epic Dragon gets you more bang for your buck, unless you plan on mostly shooting to something like 2K ProRes 4444. I think the Alexa is a bit more robust and solid as a camera design, but that also makes it larger and heavier. But it certainly is fairly reliable.

 

Sort of depends on what sort of work you plan on doing with your camera. If I were going to be hiking to distant locations with my gear in a packback, I'd probably prefer an Epic, but if I thought I could run out and join some TV show as a C-camera, I'd probably pick an Alexa since so many shows are using them. Alexas are more in demand in the rental business right now, though things can change, but being more expensive to buy, it may take more rentals to pay for itself... if that's why you are buying a camera. But if you are more of an independent filmmaker looking to shoot his own projects, I think the Epic Dragon may be more flexible, especially for shooting high-resolution landscape work and aerials, like for stock footage companies or commercials.

 

Both are great cameras, you will do nice work either way.

 

The other thing to consider is if you want or need a 4K+ camera; eventually the Alexa will be replaced by something with more resolution from ARRI, the market has been heading that way for the past few years, there are 4K options for Sony and Canon cameras, and soon Panasonic cameras.

 

You really have to study the market you are entering into.

[Tom Chabbat]

I just find the Dragon ridiculous. I mean, what's the point of shooting in 6K ? So can buy an expensive computer to compress it to HD ? I don't think there's even a cine lens capable of resolving this. I'm tired of this "bigger and better" consumerist point of view, always pushing you to buy the latest crap which will be obsolete next year. I just saw last week in a very good theatre a short I shot in 1080p. Yes, this old HD format everybody already forgot. Guess what, people liked it. I admit, it's not as sharp as a F65, but who really cares ? I think the craft is much more important than the specs, the way you light your scene, frame it, grade it. That's what people really see. A well graded HD footage is really enough for most of big screens. Unless you want to be seen on Imax, but I'm not even sure that your work is to be shown on theatre.

 

If you ask me, I prefer to put as less money as possible on the camera, you can find today some HD raw capable cameras for less than 3000$, that's all you need, and keep your money for good glass, that's what matters most in my opinion.

[Neal Norton]

Hi Matthew:

 

There is a big difference between the Alexa and an Epic Dragon.

 

You can buy or rent an Alexa.

 

Until an Epic Dragon is available to the market (not hand picked Red folks) it is pretty hard to compare the two.

 

Neal Norton

[Freya Black]

Arri Amira maybe?

 

http://www.creativeplanetnetwork.com/dv/news/why-arri-amira-could-be-very-big-deal-indie-filmmakers/63887

 

Freya

[Justus de Jager]

In my local market, the producers are really scared of the Epic, needless to say Dragon, in terms of storage and post especially on features. They all push for Alexa and Prores. I do understand their concerns but i think we are already seeing some great test footage from the Dragon but might be hard to convince them seeing our budgets are considerably less than those in the States. I have been really lucky having a Red one MX, pay itself back many times over and was a well worth investment, and now considering the Dragon. Not sure it will do as well for me as the MX has though.

[Guest]

You're a student and you have money for an Alexa? Nice. I spent 100K buying my Alexa package, that's what it came to to get a basic shooting package with no lenses of course.

 

And I wouldn't call the Alexa "digital crap" Guy. If the Alexa was good enough for a mega budget heavy VFX film like, "Life Of Pi." Then it's good enough for me as well.

 

That said I still love 35mm. My main issue with RED products is the amount of down time they generate on set. Ask any AC what they think of RED products and they will roll their eyes. I shot in the woods under all sorts of harsh conditions with the Alexa for 5 weeks and the camera never so much as said boo. That's a far cry from the endless stories I hear about RED cameras crapping out on set in the middle of the shoot day.

 

What terrifies me about digital cinema is rendering out your final edit on the Mac, and having a 90 min movie come out to 120GB. Then delivering this on a pocket drive to the post house for colour correction! It's pretty amazing. I expect in 10 years the 90 min movie will be a file that's 50GB, and it will just keep getting smaller and smaller.....

 

R,

[Matthew Glover]

You're a student and you have money for an Alexa? Nice. I spent 100K buying my Alexa package, that's what it came to to get a basic shooting package with no lenses of course.

 

And I wouldn't call the Alexa "digital crap" Guy. If the Alexa was good enough for a mega budget heavy VFX film like, "Life Of Pi." Then it's good enough for me as well.

 

That said I still love 35mm. My main issue with RED products is the amount of down time they generate on set. Ask any AC what they think of RED products and they will roll their eyes. I shot in the woods under all sorts of harsh conditions with the Alexa for 5 weeks and the camera never so much as said boo. That's a far cry from the endless stories I hear about RED cameras crapping out on set in the middle of the shoot day.

 

What terrifies me about digital cinema is rendering out your final edit on the Mac, and having a 90 min movie come out to 120GB. Then delivering this on a pocket drive to the post house for colour correction! It's pretty amazing. I expect in 10 years the 90 min movie will be a file that's 50GB, and it will just keep getting smaller and smaller.....

 

R,

 

Edited October 28, 2013 by Matthew Glover

[Matthew Glover]

You're a student and you have money for an Alexa? Nice. I spent 100K buying my Alexa package, that's what it came to to get a basic shooting package with no lenses of course.

 

And I wouldn't call the Alexa "digital crap" Guy. If the Alexa was good enough for a mega budget heavy VFX film like, "Life Of Pi." Then it's good enough for me as well.

 

That said I still love 35mm. My main issue with RED products is the amount of down time they generate on set. Ask any AC what they think of RED products and they will roll their eyes. I shot in the woods under all sorts of harsh conditions with the Alexa for 5 weeks and the camera never so much as said boo. That's a far cry from the endless stories I hear about RED cameras crapping out on set in the middle of the shoot day.

 

What terrifies me about digital cinema is rendering out your final edit on the Mac, and having a 90 min movie come out to 120GB. Then delivering this on a pocket drive to the post house for colour correction! It's pretty amazing. I expect in 10 years the 90 min movie will be a file that's 50GB, and it will just keep getting smaller and smaller.....

 

R,

Yep reading stories I may just hold off until Arri decides to release a 4k/. Iv heard numerous things about them also being unreliable. Honestly how much do you think a 4k would cost and how much would it drive the Alexa up if they do decide to release it? Do you think they will try to compete with red in terms of price? I also wonder how long its going to take them until they decide to release it. The release of the dragon has shown that you can up the resolution and still keep the dynamic range.

[David Mullen ASC]

If you can wait, then wait... for any electronic device. No, I don't think ARRI is going to release a 4K camera for less money than their current camera, but who knows. But their products are aimed at people with deeper pockets, so don't expect them to match Red's low prices.

 

Another option is the Sony F55 and the Canon C500, both of which have a 4K option. The Sony F55 has a compressed 4K XAVC format, though I believe it is only 4:2:2.

[Guest]

The RED cameras are just not as well built and as reliable as the Alexa. You get what you pay for as the old adage goes.

 

You've heard numerous things about the Alexa being unreliable? I'd like to know from who?

 

R,

[Matthew Glover]

The RED cameras are just not as well built and as reliable as the Alexa. You get what you pay for as the old adage goes.

 

You've heard numerous things about the Alexa being unreliable? I'd like to know from who?

 

R,

Sorry I worded that wrong. I ment to say i heard that some red cams are unreliable and run into trouble on set. I obviously don't want this to happen to me. I will most likely wait until arri comes out with a Alexa 4k. Although it will be pricey I know it will be a cam to last a lifetime. How much do u guys seeing it go for? Possibly a double in the price of the Alexa? I doubt it but u never know these days.

[David Mullen ASC]

A 4K ARRI doesn't exist yet -- can you wait for two years, for example, in case it isn't being sold until then? If so, isn't this discussion rather hypothetical?

 

I've shot three features on Red cameras and they didn't have any major problems; I think the reliability issue between Red and ARRI is a bit exaggerated, but I do think the ARRI's are built like tanks. Of course, that also makes them heavier...

[Guest]

I do think the ARRI's are built like tanks.

 

Well the Germans are world famous for building the best tanks! Maybe they'll invade Poland with the Alexa next time?

 

R,

[Matthew Glover]

A 4K ARRI doesn't exist yet -- can you wait for two years, for example, in case it isn't being sold until then? If so, isn't this discussion rather hypothetical?

 

I've shot three features on Red cameras and they didn't have any major problems; I think the reliability issue between Red and ARRI is a bit exaggerated, but I do think the ARRI's are built like tanks. Of course, that also makes them heavier...

You guys have both been awesome thank you for the replies! I have alot to think about ;) both cameras are awesome and I can't go wrong no matter what.

[Phil Rhodes]

I think that, once again, we have a thread which boils down to: you may as well rent.

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Hi Matthew:

 

There is a big difference between the Alexa and an Epic Dragon.

 

You can buy or rent an Alexa.

 

Until an Epic Dragon is available to the market (not hand picked Red folks) it is pretty hard to compare the two.

 

Neal Norton

 

If you have deep pockets than you can get a Epic Dragon Carbon brain at 50K USD. That is 21K usd more than the Epic Dragon. However, by paying this premium you get a carbon brain which is 1 pound lighter and this will help you in jumping the queue.

 

It would be better to rent or borrow these two different systems and see how you feel. You can then decide whether to buy or not.

[M Joel W]

Look at what people are renting... what there's demand for. Assuming you're planning to rent.

 

If you're working as an owner/op and want to work purely on the basis of what you deliver (and not on what camera you own), of course it's up to you!

 

I think the market for the Alexa has stayed strong for quite a while but it is finally waning. Seeing some VERY affordable Alexa packages on the east coast for the first time. The Epic is of course a dime a dozen now. Red cameras seem to be very hot while a new technology is unavailable but then the market is quickly flooded, wheras fewer people buy Alexas... so while they are cheap now they didn't used to be.

 

I think with digital cameras it's wise to buy at the beginning of a product cycle if you're looking to rent, wise to buy at the end if you want a fun cheap camera for your own personal use. I would not buy either camera right now, but then again I couldn't afford one.

 

Personally I'm an Alexa fan (and quite like what I've seen of the F55, though I've yet to use one), but the Dragon does look cool!

[Brett Bailey]

Personally, I would lean more towards renting a camera. You have to remember "Moore's Law" in regard to technology. They are both fine cameras.

[Nate Opgenorth]

Sorry to necropost but I have some questions and I didn't want to open a new thread....People say they fear RED for the massive files and well...thats resonable! BUT is it wrong to rent say a Scarlet or even an Epic and following the shoot convert straight to ProRes at a lower resolution like 3840x2160 instead of 5K or now 6K? People seam to say that defeats the purpose of RED but with the Alexa so many shoots are ProRes only and honestly I would rather just have a nice 200mbps+ codec over dealing with massive storage needs of RAW. Reason I ask is because it seams Alexa = more expensive than RED to rent but costs of post production are cheaper than RED, and RED = cheap to rent but costs of post production can be potentially disastrous. The jump from 2K/1080p to 4K was cool but it was pretty insane on the storage requirements which I didn't fully grasp until I went ahead and did a 30 minute piece at 4K and while my machine kept up with the renders my hard drives were being eaten alive!

[Adrian Sierkowski]

Well it'll still cost you time and storage to even hold the red files before you convert them-- that becomes the primary problem. Also on set, you get stuck downloading tons and tons of data. The same problem happens with the black magics when shooting raw-- hence why I tend to shoot prores, unless I really need, and production can really handle shooting around 1TB/day (or more sometimes off of the 2.5K)

[Nate Opgenorth]

Well it'll still cost you time and storage to even hold the red files before you convert them-- that becomes the primary problem. Also on set, you get stuck downloading tons and tons of data. The same problem happens with the black magics when shooting raw-- hence why I tend to shoot prores, unless I really need, and production can really handle shooting around 1TB/day (or more sometimes off of the 2.5K)

Yeah I realize that...I've shot RAW but not on the RED cameras, although I have worked with RED Footage but just sample footage but overall would the coversion to ProRes save space in post production overall? ProRes HQ is a great codec, even regular ProRes, but yeah I'm familiar with the Blackmagic workflow. At least with RED you can choose the compression ratio, I'd likely shoot 18:1 for most of the stuff with 8:1 or 3:1 for critical scenes, thats how I use RAW lately on other cameras, shoot regular codecs for the majority and scenes that I anticipate to need a little bit more I shoot in RAW.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

Well yes, on the whole it'll save you space in post production. However, it kind of defeats the purpose of shooting raw in the first place-- hence it'd make more sense to originate on prores, generally and probably save yourself a bunch of money in paying for the time to do the conversions, plus the media on the days and the the other media you'd need to store the pro-res on and back up before you erase the raws-- if that makes sense.

[Nate Opgenorth]

Well yes, on the whole it'll save you space in post production. However, it kind of defeats the purpose of shooting raw in the first place-- hence it'd make more sense to originate on prores, generally and probably save yourself a bunch of money in paying for the time to do the conversions, plus the media on the days and the the other media you'd need to store the pro-res on and back up before you erase the raws-- if that makes sense.

It would make sense to originate in ProRes but the RED Epic doesn't allow for that unless you use an external recorder right? And the idea of using an external recorder from say the SDI out of a RED seams somewhat odd, is the signal from the SDI output even designed for capture? It seams like its soley for monitoring....this is assuming RED's have a normal SDI output (which I believe they do but I'm not 100% sure). The reason I asked the somewhat strange question is if you went to a rental house and had the option of say a Canon 7D and a RED Scarlet you might feel the Canon is not enough for your project (Not going trying to debate the merits of gear lust over the craft of film making just an example) but the RED on the other hand is too much since the workflow is not in your budget but at the same time the RED offers the quality you want regardless of resolution. I just ask because there are always plenty of VERY tempting Scarlet and Epic deals hanging from low branches in front of me but only just now am I seeing intermediate camera options like the FS100 being more available in my area.