Low/No Pay projects

[Guest]

Finally… keeping your ambition low is so important. Writing a film that could be rated PG, that has a good message, no violence, no special effects, no car chases, sticking to a great script that's shootable for under $50k, that's the ticket. It's the most important thing people forget and it's why so many low budget films just flat-out suck, they try to be overly creative and in the process, fall flat on their face. Sun is cheap/free, shoot outdoors! Desert is cheap/free, shoot in the desert! Friends are cheap/free, not much dialog! get it? Now all ya gotta do is be creative with those elements. :)

 

I dunno my friend, I am in post on my fourth feature for an October delivery. I think what you're saying above is a gross over simplification of the process. A great script for under 50K? You mean like another Paranormal Activity? Those movies are the "lottery" movies. I have great respect for Orin Peli for pulling that off, but for others to repeat that kind of success is like a lottery winner telling another lottery winner, hey buy a ticket you too can be a big winner.

 

It's why the studios don't fund 50 $13, 000.00 movies a year. They know they can never repeat that scenario. They'd rather spend 200 million in the hopes of making a billion.

 

R,

[Tyler Purcell]

I think what you're saying above is a gross over simplification of the process. A great script for under 50K? You mean like another Paranormal Activity? Those movies are the "lottery" movies.

If you're a filmmaker who owns all the equipment necessary for making a film. Who doesn't need "support" outside of actors, it reduces the complication substantially. Small crew of friends, all getting something out of the creative process, it can be done and it can be a good product. You just need to produce a product that's marketable, that's it. Over simplification? Sure… but when was the last time you saw an ultra low-budget indy that even tried to make a normal every day movie? I haven't seen any. All of them try to do something crazy.

 

Studios can make 50, $13M films each year, they just need filmmakers capable of telling a story for cheap money. Everyone makes overly complex stories, which require lots of production and post production work that inflates the budget. They have big crews, which require permits, insurance, crazy schedules, unions. Cut all that out, select all and push the delete button. You don't need any of that to make a movie, you just need a good story, good actors and some luck. I've done it with shorts and now I'm going to do it with a feature. Here's hoping it comes together!

[Michael LaVoie]

A "found footage" movie is not the best comparison. I don't know why that's always what comes to mind when people think "low budget indie". Nearly all of those are gimmick films. The good ones like Chronicle cost a fortune.

 

The serious low budget indie movies like Your Sisters Sister $125K , Like Crazy - $200K, did remarkably well financially earning a lot for investors. A couple of good "indie" names, a simple story and small cast and you probably have something you can sell. Provided you can get about $250K for the PnA campaign. Haha.

 

I wish there was more attention paid to that model. It's possible to do a great film for $150K with all the same crew and a legit cast. You cut corners for sure but most of the departments are still there. People are just paid a little less and maybe you're giving seasoned 2nds a chance at being a 1st in whatever department they normally work in.

 

The $50K model doesn't allow for any of that. It's barely enough for a splinter crew. Not for 3 weeks anyway. Maybe you could do it for 10 days in a single location type film.

[Guest]

I've done it with shorts and now I'm going to do it with a feature. Here's hoping it comes together!

 

Well long story short, and I don't mean to be a downer, but I don't think your plan has much chance of success. I've been in the sales trenches of the indy film market for a long time now, and based on that experience I think you're way off base.

 

Have you talked about this master plan to the buyers at AFM? Or the Cannes Film Market? They will give you a very different perspective.

 

But good luck anyway.

 

R,

[Michael LaVoie]

Those films are a bit older. Granted this was a few years ago and maybe that market is gone. It's all changing so fast. You could be right that because so many films are being made now that it could be impossible to sell something like that today which is only a few years after the fact. It wouldn't surprise me in the least. Which sucks cause that price point of $150 is kind of a baseline for being able to afford a decent crew and cast for at least 3 weeks. Just your bare hard costs. No frills. Non union of course.

 

But all of those films spent like half a million on the PnA in order to earn the revenue they did. Celeste and Jesse Forever $800K spent more than it's budget on PnA. Close to $900K. But it earned back 3 million domestic and 7 on VOD. So it's a worthwhile investment. but yeah, no idea how you get Sony Pictures Classics to do something like that.

[Phil Rhodes]

 

 

Have you talked about this master plan to the buyers at AFM? Or the Cannes Film Market? They will give you a very different perspective.

 

Not that I disagree with you, Richard, but most of us aren't even in a position where said buyers would grant us an audience.

 

If it were that easy I'd go down there myself and canvas as many of them as I could on what to make, because presumably they know what they need.

 

Only I wouldn't do that, because any attempt at feature filmmaking in the UK is catastrophic insanity.

 

P

[Tyler Purcell]

Well long story short, and I don't mean to be a downer, but I don't think your plan has much chance of success. I've been in the sales trenches of the indy film market for a long time now, and based on that experience I think you're way off base.

It's ok… I won't have any of my own money invested, so if I can't sell it, who cares. People are so dead-set on theatrical distribution and making money, but I'm not. I don't have any "investors", so there is no reason to make anyone happy but myself. I will give the film away for free if I need to, just so people can see the work and be entertained. Everything pay's off in the end… this film WILL boost my career, even if it's simply through IMDB and cutting a better demo reel.

 

The only real way to make a good theatrical film is to spend around 1.5 - 3M. I'm already writing my $1.5M script and I already have interest from investors, PLUS a top producer who wants in. Having a meeting about it tomorrow actually. So from my perspective, you either make the products and prey someone will watch them, or you don't make the product and sit at home pretending to be a filmmaker. I'm kinda tired of the latter, I'm ready to make the product. Maybe someday I will make money off one of my films, but until that day, I'm perfectly happy giving it away and showing people it's possible to do a lot with very little.

[Guest]

 

Not that I disagree with you, Richard, but most of us aren't even in a position where said buyers would grant us an audience.

 

If it were that easy I'd go down there myself and canvas as many of them as I could on what to make, because presumably they know what they need.

 

Only I wouldn't do that, because any attempt at feature filmmaking in the UK is catastrophic insanity.

 

P

 

Best time to catch them is the last two days of the market, traffic has slowed to a crawl by then. You don't need an appointment, you just buy a pass and walk into the room. Sure you might get a gruff response and told to bugger off, but there are also those that will talk to you. Some are nice, some are not. Lot's of producers make the rounds at AFM and Cannes Film Market, it's tough to make movies if you are afraid of the "cold call."

 

R,

[Guest]

So from my perspective, you either make the products and prey someone will watch them, or you don't make the product and sit at home pretending to be a filmmaker.

 

There is a lot of truth to that, yes. You might need to go down a few rabbit holes before you find the best path.

 

R,

[Brian Drysdale]

IHaving taken a feature film project to a market for production funding the key thing is to have a name actor attached appropriate to the level of the budget. In order to to that, unless you know one or got funding in place already, the best bet is getting a casting director on board in an attempt to overcome the no funding at the moment catch 22.scenario with the actors agents.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Brian Drysdale

[Aapo Lettinen]

If you're a filmmaker who owns all the equipment necessary for making a film. Who doesn't need "support" outside of actors, it reduces the complication substantially. Small crew of friends, all getting something out of the creative process, it can be done and it can be a good product. You just need to produce a product that's marketable, that's it. Over simplification? Sure… but when was the last time you saw an ultra low-budget indy that even tried to make a normal every day movie? I haven't seen any. All of them try to do something crazy.Studios can make 50, $13M films each year, they just need filmmakers capable of telling a story for cheap money. Everyone makes overly complex stories, which require lots of production and post production work that inflates the budget. They have big crews, which require permits, insurance, crazy schedules, unions. Cut all that out, select all and push the delete button. You don't need any of that to make a movie, you just need a good story, good actors and some luck. I've done it with shorts and now I'm going to do it with a feature. Here's hoping it comes together!

we had almost exactly the same kind of conversation this Spring on a Finnish facebook group for video professionals and almost exactly the same arguments tban in this thread

My main argument was that if a movie does not bring you reasonable salary either by sales or by funding and if this is not quite reasonably quaranteed, then you do it as a hobby and maybe for reel material sometimes if the end product is really good. Nobody does features purely for reel material though, theres too much work and not enough bang for the buck.

 

We have terms "ammattielokuva" (professional movie) and "ammattimainen elokuva" (professional-like movie) in Finnish language. The "ammattimainen elokuva" means that the filmmakers are trying to make the movie like pro:s would do but nobody gots paid. In a professional movie you, well, get paid decently. The funny thing is, most indie guys don't know what the difference is between the terms. "Ammattimainen elokuva"s are also something some of the pro:s do on spare time mostly purely for fun and maybe to try different department jobs every now and then

[Guest]

IHaving taken a feature film project to a market for production funding the key thing is to have a name actor attached appropriate to the level of the budget.

 

"If" that's possible. In my experience an agent will ONLY accept a pay or play offer. Under that scenario you are paying the actor whether you make the movie or not, so it's quite a gamble.

 

Pay or play offers are not really convenient for any producer, but, without them actors and their agents would be inundated with hundreds of scripts and offers from would be producers who actually have none of the financing lined up that they say they have.

 

R,

[Tyler Purcell]

My main argument was that if a movie does not bring you reasonable salary either by sales or by funding and if this is not quite reasonably quaranteed, then you do it as a hobby and maybe for reel material sometimes if the end product is really good. Nobody does features purely for reel material though, theres too much work and not enough bang for the buck.

Well, if you make a good product, you should be able to make money off it. Maybe not in a conventional way, but surly something will come back from the investment. To me, the investment is more about proving my ability to write stories that are entertaining and have a strong directors vision. It would be something my crew and I would do on our spare time, weekends and nights after work. We all have industry gigs, so it's hard to commit otherwise. Getting people to take time off from work is nearly impossible, especially four of my actors. So I write a script around that problem, making it a lot easier for production. This particular film is going to be tough to make however, it may take two months of shooting every weekend and a few nights during the week here and there. However, with a dedicated crew and most important, cast… it's all doable.

 

Gotta start somewhere ya know? If you don't move forward, you might as well give up.

[Brian Drysdale]

 

"If" that's possible. In my experience an agent will ONLY accept a pay or play offer. Under that scenario you are paying the actor whether you make the movie or not, so it's quite a gamble.

 

Pay or play offers are not really convenient for any producer, but, without them actors and their agents would be inundated with hundreds of scripts and offers from would be producers who actually have none of the financing lined up that they say they have.

 

R,

 

That's the problem, helps if the actor is a friend, but it's basically a catch 22 that's tough to beat.

[JD Hartman]

 

"If" that's possible. In my experience an agent will ONLY accept a pay or play offer. Under that scenario you are paying the actor whether you make the movie or not, so it's quite a gamble.

 

Pay or play offers are not really convenient for any producer, but, without them actors and their agents would be inundated with hundreds of scripts and offers from would be producers who actually have none of the financing lined up that they say they have.

 

R,

 

Any thoughts, even wild ass guesses how this guy is doing it? Not that he's using A list talent, but he does have some named talent, even if they are not currently in the spotlight. He also seems to have at least one investor in every one of his features.

http://www.justiceforallproductions.com/

[Guest]

 

Not that he's using A list talent, but he does have some named talent, even if they are not currently in the spotlight.

 

Well I guess you just answered your own question then :)

 

R,

[JD Hartman]

Seriously....how can this guy operate on what seems to be a shoestring budget?

Even "Jackie the Jokeman" and Joyce DeWitt must retain the services of an agent. Would an agent allow them sign a we make make money, you make make money contract, essentially a deferred pay agreement? Or would they probably be paid a flat amount plus a percentage of profits?

[Guest]

Joyce DeWitt from Three's Company? Well IMDB Pro says she's repped by someone called "J.G. Business Management." No other agents or lawyers are listed.

 

I'm sure Joyce is SAG, and SAG min is $3, 000.00/week so he would at least be paying that. I really don't think any of the actors in that product line would be too tough to get.

 

Try dealing with actors that are repped by one of the big five and have a huge management team around them. You haven't lived until you've dealt with CAA and WME, oh the joys!

 

R,

[Tyler Purcell]

Any thoughts, even wild ass guesses how this guy is doing it? Not that he's using A list talent, but he does have some named talent, even if they are not currently in the spotlight. He also seems to have at least one investor in every one of his features.

He's a lawyer… he probably has rich friends as well. I mean money talks and it's easy to pay someone to fix up a screenplay and decent crew to make your film look good. You watch his trailers, nothing has real cinematic vision, just cheap tricks that are used over and over again. I'm sure his budgets are in the $250k range and it's pretty easy to make that money back if you have the right connections.

[Miguel Angel]

There are plenty of sub - indie productions in Ireland at the moment and almost all of them will do very well as there is a very big market for those kind of movies here.

 

- Soulsmith

Under $15K, no payment for anybody BUT..
It will be a good movie to see in the festivals.

http://soulsmithfilm.ie

 

- Lift

No idea what the budget is (my opinion is that it will be under €20K) but it is a simple script which will do well in the festivals.

http://www.thetimewarriors.co.uk/blog/?p=34447

 

- Spider's Trap

No idea about the budget but it is in the festivals and apparently it is being recognized.

 

- Taryn Barker, Demon Hunter

The director is finishing the movie now and the budget, again, has to be under $20.000.

 

- The Revenge Of Shinobi

http://www.shinobifilm.com

The movie will be launched this year.

 

- Out Of Here

http://www.outofherefilm.com

Budget, €40.000 (IMDB).

Brilliantly lensed by Piers McGrail.

Movie critically acclaimed and the director is renting the movie on Vimeo On Demand.

 

 

In almost all the movies I have written neither the cast nor the crew got paid, I think the exception might be Out Of Here.

 

And some of the movies have very interesting actors playing the leads. It seems to me that in Ireland and in the UK there are loads of very well recognized actors who would do a "passion movie" for free if the script is good and offers them something different to play with.

 

What brings something very interesting: as a crew member, why would you want to work on a movie for free for 3 or 4 weeks? If the director is a friend, ok, but if the director is a completely strange, what would be your motivations?

 

I can understand why a 1st AC would jump in the Cinematographer role if offered (although I don't share that vision and that's the reason why I don't get much work as a cinematographer, because I don't do freebies anymore at all) but for a 2nd AC to go and do 1st AC for free for 3 weeks? Sure it gives you a lot of security and you step up but you can do that in short - films.

 

Anyway, the sub - indie world amazes me a lot to say the least!

 

Have a good day.

[JD Hartman]

Joyce DeWitt from Three's Company? Well IMDB Pro says she's repped by someone called "J.G. Business Management." No other agents or lawyers are listed.

 

I'm sure Joyce is SAG, and SAG min is $3, 000.00/week so he would at least be paying that. I really don't think any of the actors in that product line would be too tough to get.

R,

 

Yes, that Joyce Dewitt. About the $3,000 minimum, I really had no idea.

Thanks.

[JD Hartman]

As I am now looking for some freelance work, I just had to start this thread. I know indie filmmakers don't have Michael Bay-size budgets, but I find the amount of requirements people have for potential crew members simply outrageous, especially when they don't even plan on paying them. I'm not even talking about DP work. I completely understand that in order to have a day rate, you at least need to have a reel out there (which is what I'm trying to put together.) But, regardless of the discipline, you can't just expect people to work for free.

 

Sorry, but this stuff frustrates me. People need to eat, man!

 

Curious, recently you mentioned taking a "staycation". Prior to that break from your other job, didn't you try and find some DP jobs to take advantage of your freedom?

[Michael LaVoie]

 

Any thoughts, even wild ass guesses how this guy is doing it? Not that he's using A list talent, but he does have some named talent, even if they are not currently in the spotlight. He also seems to have at least one investor in every one of his features.

http://www.justiceforallproductions.com/

I think that guy is an attorney. I saw the ads on Mandy were always asking for a DP at a very low flat rate with gear.

 

Maybe the rates have gone up. I'd hope since the budgets appear to have grown a bit. He also runs his own film festival. Which has it's own set of benefits when it comes to networking.

[JD Hartman]

I think that guy is an attorney. I saw the ads on Mandy were always asking for a DP at a very low flat rate with gear.

 

Maybe the rates have gone up. I'd hope since the budgets appear to have grown a bit. He also runs his own film festival. Which has it's own set of benefits when it comes to networking.

 

Why yes he is a lawyer, he also puts himself into every screenplay he writes. He owns the Hoboken International Film Festival which does not take place in...you guessed it, Hoboken, NJ.

Edited June 29, 2015 by JD Hartman

[Michael LaVoie]

 

Why yes he is a lawyer, he also puts himself into every screenplay he writes. He owns the Hoboken International Film Festival which does not take place in...you guessed it, Hoboken, NJ.

Yeah, I remember being kinda let down when one of my features was shown at his festival in this little theater in Teaneck NJ. I expected it to be in Hoboken. Who would bother going to Teaneck?