Aaton vs Arri

Will Montgomery · October 23, 2015

I picked up a Steve's Cine modified Arri 2C several years ago and LOVE IT. PL Mount, internal crystal motor, same mag system as all the 2's, III's and 435. Only possibly limitation is of course not pin registered and I don't think it could handle 1000' mags.

But the size advantage is great on the 2B's & C's. With a 200' mag, it's about as compact of a 35mm camera as you'll find with reflex viewing. I also own a Steve's Cine Eyemo that I love, just not practical when it comes to focussing.

I would however look for one that's been modernized if at all possible. Those handle motors are OLD now, VERY OLD. If you get one make sure you have a couple motor options as backup.

Heikki Repo · October 23, 2015

AFAIK, servicing 16mm Aatons can get rather expensive (see http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=7988&p=61048). Other than that, the first serious short film I directed we shot with an Aaton XTR. Our DP did like it, it was a good professional camera.

On the other hand, if you are looking for a Super16 camera that is relatively modern, good to hold and allows one to use wide range of lenses in different mounts, there is really only one camera capable of it all: Eclair ACL. I have one and I like it. Steady image, reliable camera though without all the latest bells and whistles (monitoring support, variable shutter etc). You'd want to buy a complete package with PL adapter, rods, modded S16 groundglass...

As I haven't had funds to buy PL lenses I shot my latest short film with Contax Zeiss lenses (Contax/Yashica mount to C-mount adapter) and for wider lenses I used Kern Switar 10mm & 16mm.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Heikki Repo

Will Montgomery · October 23, 2015

On the other hand, if you are looking for a Super16 camera that is relatively modern, good to hold and allows one to use wide range of lenses in different mounts, there is really only one camera capable of it all: Eclair ACL

Bernie at Super 16, Inc. can still service these cameras in the U.S. He knows them intimately. The available 200ft mags make this cameras extremely compact. I can't remember which version he said was better...English or French but it would be worth calling him and discussing the camera with him as he is about the best expert in North America on it.

Heikki Repo · October 23, 2015

Bernie at Super 16, Inc. can still service these cameras in the U.S. He knows them intimately. The available 200ft mags make this cameras extremely compact. I can't remember which version he said was better...English or French but it would be worth calling him and discussing the camera with him as he is about the best expert in North America on it.

French, definately with French mags and Heavy Duty motor (this matters most for 400ft. mags). As for 200ft. mags, both are ok.

There is a lot of good information here, see menu ACL and all its submenus http://eclair16.com/eclair-acl/

Edited October 23, 2015 by Heikki Repo

Gregg MacPherson · October 23, 2015

If you fill a room with expert techs and they don't agree, who do you believe? I talked to a tech at a big rental company in Aussi who serviced Aaton, some cameras for their whole working life, and never done the vacume oil infusion. Maybe LTR have a different bearing system to the later cameras? Maybe there's a way to replenish the oil without that. This tech told me that his first service with an unfamiliar Aaton was very careful and costs about AU800 if nothing is wrong. later periodic service can be just over half that.

ACL have oil impregnated scintered bronze (vs aluminum) bushes, and I heard that ACL are quite tolerant of intermittant use, non use for a few years.

I think there are a few techs in the States who are good with ACL. Suddenly we could be in a room full of people and all disagree on who's best.

What Heiki mentions about the English vs French. The properly serviced English 400' mag has a different take up system with a low power requirement of the motor and was made to suit those small original Thomson motors. The French 400' mag with the normal friction take up can stress those motors.

Otherwise, plus one on Heiki, French and the HD motor are best.

Will Montgomery · October 23, 2015

In the U.S., Arri SR's are everywhere and Arri techs are still everywhere although they are working on digital cameras and lenses now. Just saying that around here you're going to find more parts and repair opportunity with Arri for sure.

Even Arri in NY worked on my SR 1 board a couple of years ago. They probably don't advertise the fact but they can fix those cameras still.

Tyler Purcell · October 24, 2015

So now that I've decided to go Aaton, I'm struggling to figure out the lens situation.

I have three way's to go, each of them are pretty much the same price.

1) Zeiss 11 - 110 zoom lens PL mount (used) $4500

2) Zeiss 9.2, 12, 16, 25, 50 - 1.3, PL mount (5 lenses used) $5000

3) Optar Illumina 8, 9.5, 12, 16, 25, 50 - 1.3, Arri Bayonet mount (6 lenses NEW) $5000

So to me, it's a no-brainer to buy the Optar's and just adapt them to PL mount for the Aaton or Arri.

Should I take the plunge?

Kenny N Suleimanagich · October 24, 2015

You'll spend more adapting them to PL than the super speeds which are ready to go. Used condition notwithstanding, I think the super speeds are the better option.

Adrian Sierkowski · October 24, 2015

Optars are nice, the Zeiss are better. (and i own Optars). Though honestly, I'd highly recommend a good S16mm zoom. It's nice to get above and beyond 50mm.

Brian Drysdale · October 24, 2015

It really depends on what you're shooting. For documentries (rare on film these days) a zoom would be more useful.

Satsuki Murashige · October 24, 2015

It's been awhile since I've used all three, but I would probably strike the 11-110 off the list unless you can get a matching Aspheron (Zeiss wide angle adapter) and some diopters for it. It's sharp and pretty, but 11mm is not very wide and the close focus is 5' as I recall. A Canon 7-63 would be a better zoom for narrative in my opinion. Only used the Optars a few times, they were ok. Nice to have the 8mm focal length.

Satsuki Murashige · October 24, 2015

Also, there was an Aspheron for the 9.5mm Zeiss Super Speed as well. Not sure if it was the same one. There may be some Super 16 coverage issues with the wider focal lengths, I'd check.

Tyler Purcell · October 24, 2015

I've been told to stay away from zooms because their optical quality isn't close to that of primes. I actually prefer zooms because it allows for much quicker shooting since you can change focal lengths on the fly. I grew up shooting with zooms on film, most of my 16mm and 35mm film work has been using zooms. Plus, I can use the zoom on my pocket camera, which would be very nice in the future.

With all that said, I'm shooting two series of short films. One is narrative where I'll need optical quality because the lens will be wide open a lot (shooting in dark locations with shallow depth of field look) and the second is documentary. However, the documentary work won't have much run and gun. It will be more thought out and staged. I use a 25mm on my pocket camera for 80% of my work and I think it would still be my (go to) lens on film.

So maybe I can work out a deal to get three primes; 8, 16, 25, which will cover all the wide angle stuff. Then get a zoom to cover everything else. This way... when I have 2 cameras (which is my goal) I'll have enough lenses to shoot with both at the same time.

My other question is... could I ever adapt my canon glass to work on the LTR 7 aaton mount?

Gregg MacPherson · October 24, 2015

Are the Zeiss primes MK I, II or III? If they are II or III and OK condition then that's a cheap price. Buy the set. It seems premature to me to impose a visual style with limited lens choice, unless those projects are already developed that far.

Add on edit: The Aaton mount FFD is less than 52mm. That did allow some adapters (Zeiss contax?) that Arri/PL can't. If your Cannon FFD is more than the Aaton FFD then an adapter is possible. Less Bosher in the UK does that sort of thing. Not cheap, but not that expensive either when you ponder it. He might make a mount adapter that stays on the camera.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Gregg MacPherson

Brian Drysdale · October 24, 2015

The Zeiss Contax lenses on the Aaton involved changing the lens mount to an Aaton one.

Tyler Purcell · October 25, 2015

I'm going to see the LTR 7 and do some checks on it. I think it's the right way to go initially because even though it's an older camera, it will give me a wider option for glass right off the bat. Once I have serious financial backing, it will be a lot easier to buy a few other packages for my project. Being able to use a wider variety of glass is more appealing to me.

Tyler Purcell · October 25, 2015

Well, I did it! Thanks to your guys suggestions and comments.

I think what I got was an amazing deal. I must thank Scott, the absolutely awesome guy I got the equipment from, who understood my cause and was VERY, VERY, VERY generous!

I met him over at his storage facility and saw the camera. It had some issues, the mirror was hitting the inside of the front case. I explained to him that I'm a pretty good technician and could fix it no problem.

So this is an unusual camera, it's a LTR modified to an LTR 7, with all of the super 16 updates done to the mags and of course body. It will run at 54 fps without an external crystal, the batteries have recently been re-celled (been testing and they seem to be great). Comes with three magazines, four batteries, color video tap which can run a monitor off the internal battery, it's pretty much everything I wanted as a "B" camera.

Then we got started talking about lenses. He showed me what he had and I went crazy. He had the full 6 lens Optar prime kit and a beautiful Zeiss 10 - 100 F2.4 and adaptors so I could run all the lenses on either Aaton mount OR PL mount. After examining everything, I decided to make an offer, but I didn't want to be a jerk and low-ball. So I told him the truth, I have this great program I'm running to help people who want to shoot film. I told him this equipment would be in good hands, loving hands. I told him how much I was trying to get lenses for and how much I could afford. After some cattle prodding and almost two hours of discussion, we decided on a price that was worth it for both parties. He got rid of old stuff he wasn't using and I got old stuff that will make someone's life so much happier.

I wound up getting everything for $5600.

I went home, stripped the camera down and fixed the problem as I suspected. No damage had been done yet, but had it continued running like that, it would have broken the mirror. It was some sound insolation material that had come loose, probably from the heat we've had recently here in LA. I glued it back together again very carefully and re-assembled.

Man, I LOVE this camera. Having been an Arri guy for so many years, I'm astounded how much BETTER this camera is in so many ways. All of the things I didn't like about the Arri, like the magazine threading and shoulder mount comfort, these things are fixed. Sure the Aaton has it's weaknesses, the battery system is kinda bogus and the viewfinder is ho-hum. However, those things aside, this camera is quieter for sure, it has a bitchin' and reliable pull down system, far better then I expected. Its well made inside, the little connectors are dynamite, I wanted to take pictures of them because they were so cool, so european.

So now all I need is decent light meter, another camera, matte boxes and follow focuses for both cameras, new cases, sticks/quick release plates and odds and ends. I'm going to buy the XTR I've been eye balling once I have some more money coming in.

Man... can you tell I'm happy? This is the first time I've had a 16mm camera in my possession for nearly 14 years. I must have walked around the house for an hour with the camera on my shoulder running dead stock through it, testing the mag's, batteries, everything to make sure it worked and it's pretty flawless.

Just got the first script for our first short film! Should be in production mid November! Canna wait to bring it to you guys and show you what we're doing! :)