2-perf Panavision?

[David Mullen ASC]

Last night at an ASC event, Henner Hoffman was telling me that he just wrapped on a production called "Gallow-walker" that was shot with Panaflexes modified to 2-perf by Panavision U.K. I didn't even know that was a possibility.

 

A friend of mine wants to do a very low-budget movie in film that has to go through a D.I. probably (characters speaking in subtitled Native American dialects) and I was thinking of proposing 3-perf rather than Super-16, but if 2-perf was a possibility now, that would be ideal since it's a period western on a shoestring budget.

[Dan Goulder]

If he's looking to do a "traditional" D.I. involving scanning of selects, he'll need to find a facility that's equipped to log 2-perf edge codes. Currently, most facilities claim to only being able to log 3 or 4-perf codes.

[Joe Sexton]

I think this would be ideal for many low budget productions. Do you know what kind of work flow would be involved? Is a D.I. possible with 2 perf? I am very interested in this because right now I'm basically limited to s16 with budget I'm working with.

Edited April 13, 2007 by Joe Sexton

[Guest Stephen Murphy]

David,

 

Why dont you talk to Arri? They've just released a new 2 perf movement for their arricam, 235 and 435 cameras.

[David Mullen ASC]

David,

 

Why dont you talk to Arri? They've just released a new 2 perf movement for their arricam, 235 and 435 cameras.

 

Because I'm a renter, not an owner, so any 2-perf camera would have to come through a rental house. I could ask Clairmont or Ottos in LA if they can get ahold of any 2-perf movements. Of course, the other problem is that an Arricam is not a cheap camera to rent, unlike a Panaflex GII.

[John Holland]

So did this chap say it was a 2perf G11 Panaflex ? out of London ? if so will try and get some info on it for you .

[Jan Weis]

Here's a little something i found on wikipedia.

 

apperantly its nothing new.

 

''2-perf

 

Main article: Techniscope

 

2-perf camera systems use only 2 perforations per frame on 35mm film, which gives an aspect ratio close to the 2.39:1 aspect ratio used in anamorphic prints. It was first proposed conceptually around 1930, but was not put into practice until 1961, when Techniscope was developed at Technicolor's Italian branch. It has recently been brought up again with the advent of higher quality, lower grain film stocks as well as digital intermediate post-production methods which eliminate optical blowups and thus improve quality. While in the recent past, some companies have offered custom conversions of camera equipment to 2-perf, it appears that camera manufacturers are now poised to support the format. Arri made 2-perf movement blocks for their Arricam and Arriflex 235 cameras available for rental in March 2007[1], while Aaton's Penelope camera, currently due for a late 2007 release, will be the first camera specifically designed for 2-perf usage (as well as 3-perf and 4-perf).''

 

 

 

 

Sorry for going off topic but theres something ive been wondering about.

 

When shooting with anamorphic lenses, is the image in the viewfinder streched

or unstretched?

 

/Jan

Edited April 13, 2007 by Jan Weis

[John Holland]

Well done Jan no its really old . dear me.

[Olex Kalynychenko]

Last night at an ASC event, Henner Hoffman was telling me that he just wrapped on a production called "Gallow-walker" that was shot with Panaflexes modified to 2-perf by Panavision U.K. I didn't even know that was a possibility.

 

2 perforation of film gate and movement can be use for 2.35 :1 rate film shooting with use of spherical lenses.

3 perforation of film gate can be use for 1.85:1 rate film shooting.

 

Konvas, Kinor-35 H cameras can be modify on 2, 3 perforation too.

This can do Bruce from THE ARANDA GROUP, Australia.

[Jan Weis]

Well done Jan no its really old . dear me.

 

well not everyone here is a DoP.

[David Mullen ASC]

Most modern 35mm cameras have a switch to unsqueeze an anamorphic image in the viewfinder.

 

I'm well-aware of the history of 2-perf -- the problem up until this year is that the format died in the early 1970's, so there is a lack of modern sync-sound cameras with 2-perf movements.

 

Arri just announced the availability of 2-perf movements this year, and the Aaton Penelope has yet to be released, and Multivision 235 is in Australia... so basically the 2-perf rental market in Los Angeles is still dead more or less. But I have hopes that it will soon be an option.

 

I'm not interested in buying a camera that I can convert to 2-perf and I don't really want to rent from an overseas company, although I'm hoping that if Panavision considers themselves to be one big company, they would ship any 2-perf cameras in the U.K. over here if requested. Apparently Henner Hoffman had them convert a GII and a Platinum to 2-perf.

[John Holland]

Sorry Jan didnt mean to be nasty , just if you are really interested in film i think you should know a bit about formats i fell in love with film /cinema at about the age of 12 and spent rest of my life learning .

[Jan Weis]

Sorry Jan didnt mean to be nasty , just if you are really interested in film i think you should know a bit about formats i fell in love with film /cinema at about the age of 12 and spent rest of my life learning .

 

Sounds like good idea John , Ive just recently started exploring formats. Thanks for the kick in

the butt, though, think I need it.

 

anyways this site is like school book for me, learned almost everything I know here.

 

by the way I'm 18 in case you've been wondering, so I havent had the opportunity to apply

to a filmschool just yet, but i will apply next year.

 

/Jan

[Robert Houllahan]

Arri just announced the availability of 2-perf movements this year, and the Aaton Penelope has yet to be released, and Multivision 235 is in Australia... so basically the 2-perf rental market in Los Angeles is still dead more or less. But I have hopes that it will soon be an option.

 

 

I am interested in supporting this format, I talked to the Aaton rep in Canada who is in charge of the Keylink product about upgrading our 2 systems to read 2-perf keycode properly supposedly it is a software upgrade for most versions of the keylink system.

 

For dailies I believe the Metaspeed servo on a Cintel system can be programmed to properly transport 2 perf for edit dailies. I think Spirit and Shadow TK's can run 2 perf as again it is a program in the digital servo.

 

I do not know entirely about finish scanning but it has been suggested that you would do a 4perf scan to 4K on something like a Northlight and split the frames in post, this effectively doubles scan speed.....

 

-Rob-

[Stephen Williams]

I do not know entirely about finish scanning but it has been suggested that you would do a 4perf scan to 4K on something like a Northlight and split the frames in post, this effectively doubles scan speed.....

 

-Rob-

 

Hi,

 

A bad idea as the film may well be unsteady when transfered this way.

 

Stephen

[Chris Burke]

I am interested in supporting this format, I talked to the Aaton rep in Canada who is in charge of the Keylink product about upgrading our 2 systems to read 2-perf keycode properly supposedly it is a software upgrade for most versions of the keylink system.

 

For dailies I believe the Metaspeed servo on a Cintel system can be programmed to properly transport 2 perf for edit dailies. I think Spirit and Shadow TK's can run 2 perf as again it is a program in the digital servo.

 

I do not know entirely about finish scanning but it has been suggested that you would do a 4perf scan to 4K on something like a Northlight and split the frames in post, this effectively doubles scan speed.....

 

-Rob-

 

 

rob,

 

Steve over at National told me that they can handle 2 perf, or so says the manual.

 

David,

Edgewood studios in Vermont rent a 2 perf camera. check out there website for more info.

 

chris

[David Mullen ASC]

Edgewood studios in Vermont rent a 2 perf camera. check out there website for more info.

 

Vermont Ave. in Los Angeles... or the state of Vermont?

[Adam Frisch FSF]

This can't really be a new thing at all - Titanic's underwater shots on the real wreck were shot with a 2-perf Panavision camera, so the movement must have been done years ago and just been lying on some shelf. Just that noboy asked for it, probably.

 

Also, changing from a 4- to 2-perf mpvement on any camera with a Mitchell movement (like the Panavision), is a breeze - all you have to do is make the main wheel where the pulldown claws smaller.

[Bruce Taylor]

Vermont Ave. in Los Angeles... or the state of Vermont?

 

They are in the state of Vermont. A modified CP XR-35 and Arri IICT for rent.

 

http://www.edgewoodstudios.com/production/...ra_rentals.html

 

But low cost 2 perf camera rental is coming to LA in the next few months- complete modernized Kinor 35H kit (modern electronics, video tap, Lomo glass). Will keep you posted on this.

 

-Bruce Taylor

[Bruce Taylor]

But low cost 2 perf camera rental is coming to LA in the next few months- complete modernized Kinor 35H kit (modern electronics, video tap, Lomo glass). Will keep you posted on this.

 

If there is sufficient interest in my Kinor 2 perf rental project I may be able to accelerate the timetable, or modify multiple bodies. I don't have a website up yet, but if someone is interested they can email me at taylorcobmw@yahoo.com .

 

-Bruce Taylor

[David Mullen ASC]

This can't really be a new thing at all - Titanic's underwater shots on the real wreck were shot with a 2-perf Panavision camera, so the movement must have been done years ago and just been lying on some shelf. Just that noboy asked for it, probably.

 

That was a 2-perf Arri-2C as I recall. There was no reason to use a sync-sound Panaflex in an underwater housing going to the bottom of the Atlantic!

 

Believe me, there have been no 2-perf sync-sound cameras for rental in Los Angeles for a long time -- I check regularly with all the rental houses. There has never been a 2-perf Panaflex until now -- in fact, at the ASC Clubhouse I was talking to someone who mentioned that a 2-perf movement was on the drawing boards at the intro fo the Panaflex in the early 1970's but the project was killed, probably because at the time, Panavision was THE place for anamorphic lenses, and saw 2-perf as competition.

 

Plus 2-perf basically died after the mid 1970's when Technicolor stopped offering conversions to 4-perf anamorphic as part of a dye transfer release, hence why all original 2-perf camera equipment date back to the early 1970's or before: Mitchells, Arri-2C's, and Eclair CM3's basically.

 

No Panaflexes or Arri-BL's have ever been available in 2-perf; not until Multivision 235 in Australia resurrected the format with some converted Moviecams has there been any modern sync-sound cameras in 2-perf (I'm ignoring the Russian cameras for the moment). Hence the recent excitement over the news that Aaton was supporting it with the new Penelope and Arri was now making 2-perf movements for Arricams.

[Robert Houllahan]

Hi,

 

A bad idea as the film may well be unsteady when transfered this way.

 

Stephen

 

 

I had a similar discussion about this on the Tig and this is certainly a questionable area in the idea of a 2 at a time scan even on a pin registered scanner like a Northlight or Arri. I guess tests would have to be done.

 

-Rob-

[Robert Houllahan]

rob,

 

Steve over at National told me that they can handle 2 perf, or so says the manual.

 

 

I knew the servos, etc. in any newer TK (thompson, cintel) would be able to do this, the rest is masking/sizing for the video format. National has the same Keylink that we do and it needs to be upgraded for 2-perf according to Carter at Trading Post the North American dealer. JP at aaton would want his keycode reader to read properly for all of his camera's.

 

I saw a very nice Kinor modified for 2-perf by Aranda film on ebay a few months back looked really nice around $20k was the asking. There have been some cheap-ish Moviecam's on there recently as well, seems like another good candidate.

 

I want to substitute 2-perf for my Aaton on the next picture I shoot. Same mag run times (ish) 35mil quality and no real protection for video I love it.

 

-Rob-

[Gary McClurg]

I thought there was an old post on this... but there was a post house that could go to HD from 2 perf... trying to remember where that was... did a search... but had no luck...

 

Found one link...

 

http://www.abelcine.com/articles/index.php...6&Itemid=34

 

A 1000' load runs for 22 minutes... not bad...

 

http://www.cinematechnic.com/resources/arri_35-2.html

 

A different forum... I didn't read through it all...

 

http://www.cinematography.net/Pages%20DW/A...phics-2Perf.htm

Edited April 14, 2007 by Gary McClurg

[K Borowski]

I had a similar discussion about this on the Tig and this is certainly a questionable area in the idea of a 2 at a time scan even on a pin registered scanner like a Northlight or Arri. I guess tests would have to be done.

 

-Rob-

 

Well, this is really academic, if you think about it. Since you're dealing with making 2 perfs just as tall as a 4-perf anamorphic feature, you'd get exactly twice as much weave fora given filmstock/telecine combination for 2 perf as you would for 4-perf. YOu'd similarly get 1-1/2 times the weave of 3-perf. I'm sure if you use pin registration and are religious about keeping registration in alignment on your equipment, it shouldn't be problem. I'm surprised how much weave I see in big-budget films, even TV shows like Law& Order. If you want to use the common senses way to cut down on weave, don't have really bright white titles near the edge of the frame or overlaid on a black object in the shot. Also, don't keep a white stationary shot rolling for more than a few seconds in the final cut, as weave is pretty hard to see when the human eye is occupied simultaneously with other more interesting visual stimuli than checking for gate weave, counting hair or dust, counting pixels, or counting green noise pixelation in the night Sky on the planet Coruscant, (not that I've done that stuff personally, Iesp. not the last item on the list ;) ) That's really a pretty terrible way of eliminating the problem, but at least it's better than making it really obvious, like a damned experimental or "art" filmmaker.