Joshua Hesami Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 I'm trying to understand more about lighting fixtures with multiple lamps arrayed between 9 to 24 total lamps. I've seen these called brute lights, dino lights, I've heard theater guys call them blinders. How do they fit in? If you need a big light, I would think to use a few big Arrimax lights. Are they more economical? Are the lamps exclusively incandescent with these fixtures? Do any of you still use them frequently? If so, then what for? How do fixtures with lamps in an Array compare to fixtures with a single lamp? Is the purpose to replicate a larger source of light? And lastly, what is the most commonly accepted term for these fixtures? (Sorry for posing so many questions at once) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adrian Sierkowski Posted January 12, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted January 12, 2016 They're much cheaper to rent than HMIs; and yes, they're tungsten. I think sometimes you can get them with Dichrotic bulbs-- though not in a PAR64 (i think it's a PAR36? but been a bit). They're great. They have a much wider spread than most HMIs, as they are physically larger sources-- though often I'd say you'd use them at night if you're on a location. They're slimmer than an HMI is. people tend to call them brutes. Last time I used it was for a short filmed on "mars" with 1 Maxi Brute-- all mediums and 1 5K into a 12x12 we lit out ext walking shot. The 9-lite maxi Brute was maybe 300' or so away it's the backlight in this case-- so yes still useful. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted January 12, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted January 12, 2016 Don't see 'em nearly so much outside the USA, I find. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Hesami Posted January 12, 2016 Author Share Posted January 12, 2016 Thanks guys. Yeah, simply searching for information on brute lights yields very mixed results and there is very little conversation or instruction to be found about their use. That's a great look Adrian. No one in my circle tends to use them but, occasionally, I'll see a look in a film that I like (usually similar to Adrian's frame) and I later find out they used brute fixtures for the set. I would have just thought to fire two M18s straight on or bounce an M40 off a 4x6 card but I prefer the results of the Brute fixture.I checked the local rental houses and I don't think anyone carries them around here. ...Dallas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adrian Sierkowski Posted January 12, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted January 12, 2016 Well the shadows off of a brute would be closer together -v- multiple HMIs, and harder -v- throwing them all into a bounce, you know? So it's often about having a large-ish singular-like source unit. The main drawbacks are physical size and weight of them, need to a lot of bulb, and power. HMI is substantially more energy efficient than tungsten-- i probably possible could've gotten away with a 6K PAR HMI in this particular case, -v- a 9K tungsten fixture. However, the 6K PAR costs a lot more to rent, and i felt the money could be better used elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adrian Sierkowski Posted January 12, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted January 12, 2016 And here's roughly how it looks without the smoke and without the look tweak on the dragon (i think this was an iphone photo?) Don't mind the hat. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted January 12, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted January 12, 2016 The U.K. is home to the Wendy Light: http://davidwatkin.co.uk/the-wendy-light/ The Wendy Light uses the smaller PAR 36 globes instead of PAR 64. ARRI Rental carries these multi-bank PAR's: http://www.arrirental.de/lighting/tungsten-lampheads/par-lights/ Full-Wendylight PAR 36 192x650 W Quarter-Wendylight PAR 36 48x650 W Dinolight PAR 64 24x1 kW Dinolight PAR 64 12x1 kW Maxi Brute PAR 64 9x1 kW Maxi Brute PAR 64 6x1 kW Toplight 6x1 kW Ruby 7 PAR 64 7x1 kW Dakota PAR 64 5x1 kW Lightbar PAR 64 6x1 kW Rocket PAR 64 1 kW Rocket PAR 56 300/500 W Mini Brute PAR 36 8x650 W Mini Brute PAR 36 6x650 W Mini Brute PAR 36 4x650 W Mini Brute PAR 36 2x650 W Bottom Light PAR 36 6x650 W Another similar fixture is the Jumbo Light, which is what Storaro like to use. These use ACL (Air Craft Landing) PAR globes and are DC-powered, or they can be built with regular PAR 64 globes: http://www.cosmolight.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83%3Ajumbo-and-aircraft&catid=12%3Amultilamp-tungsten&Itemid=44&lang=it You can see the multiple-shadow effect of using a direct Jumbo light here in this frame from "Little Buddha" (if the unit had been farther away, the fringed shadow effect would be more subtle): This day exterior in "Tucker" used Jumbos for a late afternoon effect. You can see the multiple shadows in the insert, but in the backlit angle, you can't tell at all that a multi-bank light was used. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted January 12, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted January 12, 2016 I used a 24-light Maxi outside the windows on the left to create a late afternoon effect in this gym: 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted January 12, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted January 12, 2016 It's not home to very many Wendy lights! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Bill DiPietra Posted January 12, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted January 12, 2016 I used a 24-light Maxi outside the windows on the left to create a late afternoon effect in this gym: David, how far back was the light from the window?... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johanan Pandone Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 I used a 24-light Maxi outside the windows on the left to create a late afternoon effect in this gym: This is a really nice effect! Is the tungsten source gelled at all? Are the windows gelled? Is there also HMI lighting coming through the right window? I would just like to know the two approximate color temperatures that are being mixed here and how, it looks like they're a bit closer together than 3200/5600 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted January 12, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted January 12, 2016 It was tungsten on the left and HMI on the right or Kinos (Daylight) for fill. When the tungsten is mixed into a big daytime interior, the orange tends to get diluted plus its a bit overexposed, which make the color less noticeable. The lights were on a condor or scissor lift, maybe about 15' from the window, don't recall. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Mark Kenfield Posted January 13, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted January 13, 2016 A nice feature of the Brutes, is that you can simply reduce the number of bulbs to control exposure, saves having to deal with nets, scrims or colour shift from dimming. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted January 13, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted January 13, 2016 The LED mini-maxi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Hesami Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 Wow. You guys are awesome. If anyone had trouble before wrapping their mind around brute fixtures, you guys about covered here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Hesami Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 David, along with everyone else, I love the look of that gym. I'm just curious, were you originally aiming to see shafts of light in your shot coming from the windows? Would you have been able to get some pretty clear light shafts coming off the frames of the windows using the brutes? The reason I ask is because I recently fired an HMI through a much smaller window in a much smaller studio set and I was really hoping to get nice even shaft of light and it became more of a general glow once I fired up haze. I'm sorry, I'll post a frame when I get back to the office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted January 13, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted January 13, 2016 If I had used spot globes and more haze I would have gotten more of a shaft but the main problem is that the angle between the window and the stage is sort of 3/4 frontal whereas to see a beam better, I would have needed more of a backlit angle. Also a dirty window and too much competing ambient daylight can make the beam less dramatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niulinfeng Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 I used a 24-light Maxi outside the windows on the left to create a late afternoon effect in this gym: how far did u put it outside of the gym? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted January 13, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted January 13, 2016 It was outside that second window, I don't know how far exactly, being inside all day, maybe 15', maybe 20'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Miguel Angel Posted January 13, 2016 Premium Member Share Posted January 13, 2016 If you take a look at Penny Dreadful Season 2, most of the big night exteriors in fields are done with either 1/4 Wendy or 1/2 Wendy on a condor and with thick diffusion in front of the lights. Maxis are also used a lot for the interior days. In "La Mula", directed by Michael Radford, we used 4 full wendys to light a big early morning exterior, some of them wrapped with diffusion and some without if my memory is not acting weird. Have a good day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adam Frisch FSF Posted October 10, 2017 Premium Member Share Posted October 10, 2017 Sorry to dredge up this old thread, but an upcoming Dino job prompted this. I love Dino's, but these days they, for some reason, don't get used as much as they used to. Prob because they're pretty big and need a bit of power. But this upcoming job is the perfect use of these units: Shooting a big set on stage with lots of windows, on multiple floors. Need to be able to emulate the sun coming in in, reaching deep into the set. But due to spacing and a tight studio, I have only about 6ft of space outside each window. If I go with a single source, like an HMI or big tungsten unit to emulate sun coming in, due to how close the units will have to be to the windows, the light will spread enormously. This is always a dead giveaway as sunlight has more parallel beams. By using a much bigger source (ideally bigger than the windows themselves), you can "cheat" the fact that the source feels further away as the beams will be closer to parallel. The multiple shadows is normally not a desired look, but when shooting through windows like this, sometimes those little fringy shadows can just look like a mullion shadow, so you can get away with it. I'll see if I lightly diffuse it, or if go raw. I look forward to seeing my old friend, Dino again. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Kalaidjiev Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 (edited) On 1/13/2016 at 7:56 AM, David Mullen ASC said: It was tungsten on the left and HMI on the right or Kinos (Daylight) for fill. When the tungsten is mixed into a big daytime interior, the orange tends to get diluted plus its a bit overexposed, which make the color less noticeable. The lights were on a condor or scissor lift, maybe about 15' from the window, don't recall. Hi David, I really like the effect that you accomplished with the 24 light Brute in the gym! If you had to shoot that same scene at night (Night for Day), would you use the same set up (having Tungsten light coming from the outside and balancing it with Day light from the right)? I assume you shot during the day. I am asking you this because I have an upcoming shoot with a similar scenario. The scene is a morning light coming through the bedroom window (room is 12x12ft on the 2nd floor). In the shot we don't see outside the window. I was planing on lighting it with a Mini Brute PAR positioned 20-30ft outside the window punching in and hitting one of the walls. 1) Is it better to shoot Day for Day (as long as the actual sun doesn't come through the window)? But that would mean that I would need a really strong Dino light to overpower the ambient/skylight that is coming through the window, so that I have a contrast between the walls that are lit with the "morning light" and the rest of the room? 2) Shooting Night for Day would be easier because I would be using a lot smaller units (ex: Mini Brute PAR 36 8x650W). But I am worried that the only source that would be coming through the window would be a warm Tungsten light, and there wont be any ambient/skylight? Would I have to add an HMI next to the Mini Brute so that the light coming into the room is more mixed and realistic? Or am I overthinking it? I have attached a photo of the light quality that I am going for, of course I wont be seeing outside the window. Thanks! Edited August 29, 2021 by Boris Kalaidjiev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Aapo Lettinen Posted August 29, 2021 Premium Member Share Posted August 29, 2021 2 hours ago, Boris Kalaidjiev said: Hi David, I really like the effect that you accomplished with the 24 light Brute in the gym! If you had to shoot that same scene at night (Night for Day), would you use the same set up (having Tungsten light coming from the outside and balancing it with Day light from the right)? I assume you shot during the day. I am asking you this because I have an upcoming shoot with a similar scenario. The scene is a morning light coming through the bedroom window (room is 12x12ft on the 2nd floor). In the shot we don't see outside the window. I was planing on lighting it with a Mini Brute PAR positioned 20-30ft outside the window punching in and hitting one of the walls. 1) Is it better to shoot Day for Day (as long as the actual sun doesn't come through the window)? But that would mean that I would need a really strong Dino light to overpower the ambient/skylight that is coming through the window, so that I have a contrast between the walls that are lit with the "morning light" and the rest of the room? 2) Shooting Night for Day would be easier because I would be using a lot smaller units (ex: Mini Brute PAR 36 8x650W). But I am worried that the only source that would be coming through the window would be a warm Tungsten light, and there wont be any ambient/skylight? Would I have to add an HMI next to the Mini Brute so that the light coming into the room is more mixed and realistic? Or am I overthinking it? I have attached a photo of the light quality that I am going for, of course I wont be seeing outside the window. Thanks! you can have a 20x20 bounce mounted on a lift and bounce hmi from it to create the 'cold sky ambience' and then use another light on another lift, for example the Dino, to create the "direct sunlight" coming in. Shooting at night should be easier so that you don't need as high light levels than during the day and can manage with smaller frames because not needing to block any light from the real sky or the sun 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Aapo Lettinen Posted August 29, 2021 Premium Member Share Posted August 29, 2021 it depends on the scene how much you need to move the lights and bounces during the shooting day. in some situations it might be useful to have two 20x20 bounces but I think you can easily manage with one if prepared to move it if needed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Kalaidjiev Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 Appo thanks for your reply! If I am understanding you correctly you would put a big 20x20 bounce above the window and hit with an HMI from underneath to bounce it into the room and have the Dino separately hit directly inside. Why would you need to move the 20x20? I am thinking that between 11-3pm you could probably also use the bounce to cut the sun light from hitting around the window area, so its both a cutter and a bounce. The production budget is limited and I am not sure if they would be able afford to rent 2 lifts. Do you think it will look weird if I shot Night for Day only with the Dino without the HMI and the bounce. Would everything look to orange and not realistic? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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