Jump to content

Convert an Arrilex 435 ES from 4 to 3 perf UK


Margaret Salmon
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Sustaining Member
1 hour ago, Margaret Salmon said:

Hi, can any one in the UK recommend a good engineer to convert my Arri 435 from 4 to 3 perf?

I'm in Scotland but can ship South ūüôā¬†Thanks¬†

As far as I know the 435 can't easily be converted, if not at all. @Dom Jaeger might be able to confirm this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Uli, I did find a post saying it is very difficult if not impossible to do (today) but already have the camera! I swear I shot on a 435 that was 3 perf from Movietech a while back. Any thoughts on someone to service it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Sustaining Member
2 hours ago, Margaret Salmon said:

Thanks Uli, I did find a post saying it is very difficult if not impossible to do (today) but already have the camera! I swear I shot on a 435 that was 3 perf from Movietech a while back. Any thoughts on someone to service it?

I own a 435 3perf, they were made both as 3 and 4perf by Arri. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Sustaining Member

Andree Martin here in CA should be able to do the mod. I'm not sure if he has the parts in stock to do it, but it's not as hard as some of the later cameras. Due to the fact the magazine does the sprocket drive and that it has the older style single cam movement, its really just down to machining the cam and getting the reduction gear pack for the magazine sprocket drive. The gate is pretty easy to modify to 3 perf. Not saying the whole thing is easy by any means, but it's FAR more doable than the double cam movements. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Andree Martin here in CA should be able to do the mod. I'm not sure if he has the parts in stock to do it, but it's not as hard as some of the later cameras. Due to the fact the magazine does the sprocket drive and that it has the older style single cam movement, its really just down to machining the cam and getting the reduction gear pack for the magazine sprocket drive. The gate is pretty easy to modify to 3 perf. Not saying the whole thing is easy by any means, but it's FAR more doable than the double cam movements. 

Once again, Tyler proves that not knowing the first thing about something is no impediment to offering advice on the subject.

Here's Andree Martin's quote when Uli contacted him about a 435 conversion a couple of years ago:

"There isn't much information out there when it comes to the 435. Unlike the 235 and Arricams, the installation of a 3 perf kit into a 435 is quite difficult and it requires special tools and a highly experienced technician."

So basically the opposite of what Tyler said. Arricams are fairly simple to convert if you have the conversion kit, I actually did an Arricam conversion just a few weeks back. You can convert between 3 and 4 perf in a day.  But a 435 is much more difficult, just removing the movement is a major disassembly, compared to a few screws on Arricams. The 435 movement is a 5 link dual pulldown mechanism, not "single cam", and the gate is swapped over, not modified. I don't think finding a 435 conversion kit would be easy. 

 

4 hours ago, Margaret Salmon said:

 Any thoughts on someone to service it?

Probably the most experienced film camera techs in the UK these days would be at Panavision London, where film cameras are still being rented quite often, but I don't know if they would take external service work. Otherwise perhaps contact London Arri Rental to find out who services their analog cameras. There may still be Arri techs in Munich who haven't retired. We used to use Gecko-Cam for many years but they have pretty much transitioned to digital only.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Sustaining Member
3 hours ago, Heikki Repo said:

Quick googling brought up this service provider in the Netherlands:

https://www.cinefacilities.com/

Because of Brexit it is no longer possible to ship equipment to the EU from the UK without incurring hefty charges and a mountain of paper work. Even if it is for repairs only. Really sucks big time. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Sustaining Member
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

Here's Andree Martin's quote when Uli contacted him about a 435 conversion a couple of years ago:

"There isn't much information out there when it comes to the 435. Unlike the 235 and Arricams, the installation of a 3 perf kit into a 435 is quite difficult and it requires special tools and a highly experienced technician."

From my understanding it was a team effort on the part of Clairmont and Arri, there were no "public" kits like the 235 and Arricam's. 

Arri did have a 3 perf body towards the tail end of production, but no kits mentioned in any price guides I've been able to find. If you find one, I'd like to know, for educational value alone. 
 

Quote

So basically the opposite of what Tyler said. Arricams are fairly simple to convert if you have the conversion kit, I actually did an Arricam conversion just a few weeks back.

You make the assumption you can still get Arricam and 235 kits, from my understanding you can't anymore. Which would make those cameras far more tricky to "modify", not simply install pre-made parts with instructions. I've been a witness to the 235 and Arricam conversion before. It's not difficult at all, just time consuming. But again, imagine if you didn't have the parts, imagine if there was no kit and you were making it from scratch. That's what I mean by "converting an Arricam is more difficult", with the assumption there are NO kits available for ANY camera and you were starting from scratch. Andree doesn't need to start from scratch, he already knows what needs to be done. 

Quote

But a 435 is much more difficult, just removing the movement is a major disassembly, compared to a few screws on Arricams. The 435 movement is a 5 link dual pulldown mechanism, not "single cam", and the gate is swapped over, not modified. I don't think finding a 435 conversion kit would be easy. 

Yes, the Arricam is a much easier system to get apart and modify, zero doubt or argument about that. But again, my point is in a world with NO kits, where you're making the parts and installing them, similar to a BL or Arri III conversion. This is what AM was known for, designing and developing alternative cam's and gear sets, which change the pull down distance and the speed at which the sprockets run at. 

Also, I believe the 435 gates had 3p masks in them, not complete gate replacements. 

I got 2 e-mails out about it for curiosity sake, hopefully I'll have more answers tomorrow. 

Edited by Tyler Purcell
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Uli Meyer said:

Because of Brexit it is no longer possible to ship equipment to the EU from the UK without incurring hefty charges and a mountain of paper work. Even if it is for repairs only. Really sucks big time. 

Is it more difficult than sending equipment to US from EU was before Brexit? I sent some ACL mags to service to US last summer and while the paperwork is annoying (to avoid being taxed on return on the whole value of the equipment instead of only the service), it was manageable.

But agreed - Brexit makes things more difficult for many people!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Uli Meyer said:

I own a 435 3perf, they were made both as 3 and 4perf by Arri. 

Oh that's painful news... I bought this basic set up at a very good price, was hoping to convert it for obvious reasons! I have a 2C 4 perf.

I'm looking to find some accessories for it - in particular I need a bridge plate. Is there any source that you know of besides eBay and BB List for Arri gear?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

Once again, Tyler proves that not knowing the first thing about something is no impediment to offering advice on the subject.

Here's Andree Martin's quote when Uli contacted him about a 435 conversion a couple of years ago:

"There isn't much information out there when it comes to the 435. Unlike the 235 and Arricams, the installation of a 3 perf kit into a 435 is quite difficult and it requires special tools and a highly experienced technician."

So basically the opposite of what Tyler said. Arricams are fairly simple to convert if you have the conversion kit, I actually did an Arricam conversion just a few weeks back. You can convert between 3 and 4 perf in a day.  But a 435 is much more difficult, just removing the movement is a major disassembly, compared to a few screws on Arricams. The 435 movement is a 5 link dual pulldown mechanism, not "single cam", and the gate is swapped over, not modified. I don't think finding a 435 conversion kit would be easy. 

 

Probably the most experienced film camera techs in the UK these days would be at Panavision London, where film cameras are still being rented quite often, but I don't know if they would take external service work. Otherwise perhaps contact London Arri Rental to find out who services their analog cameras. There may still be Arri techs in Munich who haven't retired. We used to use Gecko-Cam for many years but they have pretty much transitioned to digital only.

Thanks Dom, disappointing to hear but I'll keep looking - will try Arri and rental house contacts to see if anyone emerges up to the task. I'd assumed the 3 perf I shot on before was a conversion, should have investigated!

Out of interest - and forgive my complete ignorance here - can the IVS be converted to HD?

On the other hand... could I remove the IVS entirely and lighten the camera? How difficult is this to do?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Andree Martin here in CA should be able to do the mod. I'm not sure if he has the parts in stock to do it, but it's not as hard as some of the later cameras. Due to the fact the magazine does the sprocket drive and that it has the older style single cam movement, its really just down to machining the cam and getting the reduction gear pack for the magazine sprocket drive. The gate is pretty easy to modify to 3 perf. Not saying the whole thing is easy by any means, but it's FAR more doable than the double cam movements. 

4 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

From my understanding it was a team effort on the part of Clairmont and Arri, there were no "public" kits like the 235 and Arricam's. 

Arri did have a 3 perf body towards the tail end of production, but no kits mentioned in any price guides I've been able to find. If you find one, I'd like to know, for educational value alone. 
 

You make the assumption you can still get Arricam and 235 kits, from my understanding you can't anymore. Which would make those cameras far more tricky to "modify", not simply install pre-made parts with instructions. I've been a witness to the 235 and Arricam conversion before. It's not difficult at all, just time consuming. But again, imagine if you didn't have the parts, imagine if there was no kit and you were making it from scratch. That's what I mean by "converting an Arricam is more difficult", with the assumption there are NO kits available for ANY camera and you were starting from scratch. Andree doesn't need to start from scratch, he already knows what needs to be done. 

Yes, the Arricam is a much easier system to get apart and modify, zero doubt or argument about that. But again, my point is in a world with NO kits, where you're making the parts and installing them, similar to a BL or Arri III conversion. This is what AM was known for, designing and developing alternative cam's and gear sets, which change the pull down distance and the speed at which the sprockets run at. 

Also, I believe the 435 gates had 3p masks in them, not complete gate replacements. 

I got 2 e-mails out about it for curiosity sake, hopefully I'll have more answers tomorrow. 

Thanks Tyler, I'll get in touch with AM to find out, I'm glad to know of them now. The camera just arrived from LA... sigh.

From what's been written, it seems not easy, but not impossible; the analog way? I'm still hopeful. Any additional info you find is much appreciated.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Sustaining Member
4 minutes ago, Margaret Salmon said:

Thanks Dom, disappointing to hear but I'll keep looking - will try Arri and rental house contacts to see if anyone emerges up to the task. I'd assumed the 3 perf I shot on before was a conversion, should have investigated!

Out of interest - and forgive my complete ignorance here - can the IVS be converted to HD?

On the other hand... could I remove the IVS entirely and lighten the camera? How difficult is this to do?

You can remove the IVS which is fairly simple to do but you need to cover it up. You can use a 100% video top. Arri in Munich still has some original accessories in stock, you might get lucky.

There are HD IVS systems available. Cameramarket sells this one: https://cameramarket.eu/equipment_detail.php?type=support&no=12.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Sustaining Member
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Heikki Repo said:

Is it more difficult than sending equipment to US from EU was before Brexit? I sent some ACL mags to service to US last summer and while the paperwork is annoying (to avoid being taxed on return on the whole value of the equipment instead of only the service), it was manageable.

But agreed - Brexit makes things more difficult for many people!

Sending equipment from the EU to the US used to be the same from the UK but is different now since the UK is no longer part of the EU. There is no trade agreement with the US. Sending goods between UK and EU has been made very difficult, even if you are not selling those goods. For example, you now have to have an ATA Carnet if you want to take camera gear to the EU for filming. There are costs involved and the Carnet has to be renewed every year.

Edited by Uli Meyer
clarification
Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Uli Meyer said:

Sending equipment from the EU to the US used to be the same from the UK but is different now since the UK is no longer part of the EU. There is no trade agreement with the US. Sending goods between UK and EU has been made very difficult, even if you are not selling those goods. For example, you now have to have an ATA Carnet if you want to take camera gear to the EU for filming. There are costs involved and the Carnet has to be renewed every year.

Well that sounds difficult! ūüė≥

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Sustaining Member
10 hours ago, Margaret Salmon said:

Thanks Tyler, I'll get in touch with AM to find out, I'm glad to know of them now. The camera just arrived from LA... sigh.

Ok so I talked to Andree. 

Looks like I was confused about the 2 perf mod vs 3 perf mod in my earlier comments. Andree was the one who developed the 2 perf movement for the 435. The 3 perf movement was something developed by Arri directly for the following reasons: 

Because you shorten the stroke by half a perf on the top and bottom of the stroke, you have now thrown the film into a different part of the frame range. This is easy to deal with gate wise, but and here is the problem, the registration pins would be half a perf in the wrong place. So basically it has the same problem as the arricam's. This is why Arri developed an entirely different movement for the 3 perf 435, which changes the location of the registration pins in relationship to the pulldown. 

Sadly, 3 perf is actually impossible without an original 3 perf movement from Arri. It's the same problem with the Arricam's and pretty much anything with that multi-link style movement. I'm not even sure Arri offered an upgrade either, reading through all the sales literature with accessories, there is nothing mentioned about 3 perf kits, like there are for the 235 and Arricam's. I believe the 3 perf's have to be made from the factory. 2 perf however, Andree said is possible, though I'm not certain if he'd want to attempt it. He didn't seem excited with the idea lol. 

So sorry for the confusion, I stand corrected by the master himself. Sorry I don't have better news, but it sounds like you're stuck with what ya got. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Sustaining Member
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Margaret Salmon said:

Out of interest - and forgive my complete ignorance here - can the IVS be converted to HD?

Oh yea, they 100% make an HD IVS. But its more money than the camera is worth! They also didn't make very many and finding one for an Arricam is like finding a 3 perf movement, very tricky and extremely costly. It was $22,000 USD when released according to a price sheet I found. 

http://www.aoassocies.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/arri_HD-IVS_brochure_en.pdf

Indie assist is another system and they were in development of an HD IVS for the 435 years ago, but according to their website, no further news on that front: 

https://www.indiecam.com/products/indieASSIST/

I don't know of anyone simply modifying the IVS. It's an integral part of the film camera on the 435. I've been looking around and talking to people about it for years and everyone kinda shrugs and says it's possible, but demand is just too low to warrant it. Sounds like a fun project tho! haha 

Edited by Tyler Purcell
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Ok so I talked to Andree. 

Looks like I was confused about the 2 perf mod vs 3 perf mod in my earlier comments. Andree was the one who developed the 2 perf movement for the 435. The 3 perf movement was something developed by Arri directly for the following reasons: 

Because you shorten the stroke by half a perf on the top and bottom of the stroke, you have now thrown the film into a different part of the frame range. This is easy to deal with gate wise, but and here is the problem, the registration pins would be half a perf in the wrong place. So basically it has the same problem as the arricam's. This is why Arri developed an entirely different movement for the 3 perf 435, which changes the location of the registration pins in relationship to the pulldown. 

Sadly, 3 perf is actually impossible without an original 3 perf movement from Arri. It's the same problem with the Arricam's and pretty much anything with that multi-link style movement. I'm not even sure Arri offered an upgrade either, reading through all the sales literature with accessories, there is nothing mentioned about 3 perf kits, like there are for the 235 and Arricam's. I believe the 3 perf's have to be made from the factory. 2 perf however, Andree said is possible, though I'm not certain if he'd want to attempt it. He didn't seem excited with the idea lol. 

So sorry for the confusion, I stand corrected by the master himself. Sorry I don't have better news, but it sounds like you're stuck with what ya got. 

 

Thanks Tyler, I really¬†appreciate¬†your effort, though I'm¬†sorry to hear the bad news! But¬†it could¬†explain why there are quite a few 4 perf 435's coming up (and not the 3 perf!).¬†The price was really decent, so I'll survive, just need to find a 1000 ft magazine now and be more discerning when I film¬†ūüôā¬†¬†

On the other hand... it's Interesting to hear that there was a 2 perf modification for the 435. I was speaking with a technician yesterday who said that the 2C had Arri conversion kits from 4 to 2 perf. I suppose this is not so far off from Super 16mm, kind of defeats the point of 35mm, but I have a 2C and am tempted to investigate. 

Thanks again from Scotland!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Oh yea, they 100% make an HD IVS. But its more money than the camera is worth! They also didn't make very many and finding one for an Arricam is like finding a 3 perf movement, very tricky and extremely costly. It was $22,000 USD when released according to a price sheet I found. 

http://www.aoassocies.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/arri_HD-IVS_brochure_en.pdf

Indie assist is another system and they were in development of an HD IVS for the 435 years ago, but according to their website, no further news on that front: 

https://www.indiecam.com/products/indieASSIST/

I don't know of anyone simply modifying the IVS. It's an integral part of the film camera on the 435. I've been looking around and talking to people about it for years and everyone kinda shrugs and says it's possible, but demand is just too low to warrant it. Sounds like a fun project tho! haha 

Thanks for this too - I know some rental houses in London have been modifying their systems to HD now that 35mm is back in fashion.  I can't image it's cheap, certainly not from what you report! Then again, I rarely shoot with a monitor when working on my own projects, so the thought of lightening the camera for handheld work and removing the IVS entirely is very tempting (and slightly nuts, I know!).

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's still nice to have a tap. It is a lot more efficient and ideal to use a monitor as opposed to the vf sometimes,, odd angels etc... 

Edited by Giray Izcan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
Posted (edited)
On 3/13/2021 at 5:40 AM, Margaret Salmon said:

Sadly, 3 perf is actually impossible without an original 3 perf movement from Arri. It's the same problem with the Arricam's and pretty much anything with that multi-link style movement. I'm not even sure Arri offered an upgrade either, reading through all the sales literature with accessories, there is nothing mentioned about 3 perf kits, like there are for the 235 and Arricam's. I believe the 3 perf's have to be made from the factory. 2 perf however, Andree said is possible, though I'm not certain if he'd want to attempt it. He didn't seem excited with the idea lol. 

So sorry for the confusion, I stand corrected by the master himself. Sorry I don't have better news, but it sounds like you're stuck with what ya got. 

 

Margaret I guess what we all trying  to say is without the movement parts it would be impossible to convert any movie camera. I wish we all had better news for you but the truth is very few 435 3-perfs were made by Arri. It's unfortunate Arri just did not make many movement parts or conversion kits. It is all about the "movement parts" or "movement conversion kits" availability when it comes to this sort of thing. Legendary cinematography technicians like Andree here in LA and a handful of others around the globe *can* (though not easily) do the movement conversions (the scarce Arri factory  kits are much easier to install/deinstall in just a few hours) but only IF all the movement parts OR movement kits are available in front of them right their in their workshop. 

These conversion kits just no longer exist. Your only choice if you want a 435 3-perf would be to purchase one from scratch. I know you just bought a 435 so this is painful to hear!! But that is the only way these days. There is one last 435 3-perf available on the planet for sale that I know of here in Hollywood at Alan Gordon, the price is steep but has the true 435 3-perf factory movement. On your IIC conversion it is basically the same problem...movement parts.  AG does have a Arri 35-3 in 3 -perf it is a much older model as you probably know than the 435 without many of the bells and whistles but about a third of the price of 435 3-perf movie camera. Again I wish we all had better news but we  have all seen 2/3 conversion kits literally vanish from the market in the last decade ever since  digital movie cameras took over. The other option is rental and there are plenty of choices there to shoot 2/3 perf analog in 35mm thankfully!

 

435 3-perf factory movement

https://www.alangordon.com/sales/used/cameras/35mm/Arriflex-435-3Perf

Edited by Rob Guerrero
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

Forum Sponsors

Film Gears

Serious Gear

Metropolis Post

Abel Cine

Tai Audio

New Pro Video - New and Used Equipment

VidGear.com - Broadcast Video Warehouse

Visual Products

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Broadcast Solutions Inc

FJS International

CineLab

Wooden Camera

Cinematography Books and Gear



×
×
  • Create New...