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Carl Nenzen Loven

First Eclair, which one to get?

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Hi everyone,

So I stumbled onto the winding road of Eclair in a pretty funny way.

This summer I have a film oppotunity for a classic car race, and will be able to get a press pass, and also ride with some of the drivers. Naturally I jumped at the opportunity. I wanted to shoot it digital first, but lens + cinemacamera costed me A LOT more than I can afford (3 days was around 15 000 with lenses and tripod). Hence I started looking for an alternative.

Being in filmschool my teachers suggested going back to a nimble 16mm camera, and I was first looking at the Bolex/Beaulieu alternative. But speaking to people that owned both, immidiately suggested the Eclair as a brand (also because I love to shoot on the Aaton LTR so they know my preference). Problem is that I find it a bit tricky finding out what to start looking for.

I need a 16mm camera, that can be modified to either Ultra16 or Super16 (unless it is s16 from start), variable speed control (I plan to shoot some slow motion, so 64 frames would be nice to have), and that is it I guess. I will be carrying this all by myself over the course of 3 days, along with the film so the smaller the better.

My teachers have suggested the NPR, but while searching the web we also found an ADL that looked interesting, pro/cons?

Thanks for any help I can get, even if it is just (go to this link and you silly student)

C

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Why don't you buy an LTR if you like them? There are a couple floating around on ebay in the last few weeks.

 

Biggest reason is I do not have the budget for PL-mount lenses. That is a deep rabbithole of it's own. Don't get me wrong I love the idea, but it is also a tiny bit out of my price range as well.

 

The Eclairs I have been looking at has been between 900-2000 including the 12-120mm zoom (which would work great fo the thing I am filming this summer).

 

C

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So a film school doesn't have 16mm. cameras to lend out?

 

Not over summer break, and to a different continent (I live in SF, but shoot is in France). Not really no :)

 

C

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I have lots of good things to say about Eclair ACL (and about Kern Switars & Contax Zeiss lenses on it). Just make sure you get one with the heavy duty motor and French mags. If it's an Eclair ACL II, then it should have those. However, ACL II is also largest and heaviest ACL.

 

Anyway, if you buy from Ebay make sure to test the camera first. It might need servicing.

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I have lots of good things to say about Eclair ACL (and about Kern Switars & Contax Zeiss lenses on it). Just make sure you get one with the heavy duty motor and French mags. If it's an Eclair ACL II, then it should have those. However, ACL II is also largest and heaviest ACL.

 

Anyway, if you buy from Ebay make sure to test the camera first. It might need servicing.

Yeah, I am expecting a normal service on whatever I am getting. Just not a major overhaul replacing a lot. Hence I want to try to save a little on the system I am getting.

 

There's an LTR 54 for sale on this forum at a great price.

 

WHAT Where?!

 

Is there a for sale part I haven't found yet?

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Biggest reason is I do not have the budget for PL-mount lenses. That is a deep rabbithole of it's own. Don't get me wrong I love the idea, but it is also a tiny bit out of my price range as well.

Quite the contrary, the LTR's have Aaton mount, which allows you to use; Arri B and Nikon glass without much effort. Those two mount types equates to cheap/low-cost glass.

 

I also have a film school in Los Angeles and a brilliant LTR kit that I will gladly ship to you for your film to save you some money.

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Quite the contrary, the LTR's have Aaton mount, which allows you to use; Arri B and Nikon glass without much effort. Those two mount types equates to cheap/low-cost glass.

 

I also have a film school in Los Angeles and a brilliant LTR kit that I will gladly ship to you for your film to save you some money.

This is a tempting offer. But shoot is in France, and I will be in Europe for two months (originally from Sweden), so renting there was an option until I found it really hard to find a kit.

 

And renting me it for 2 plus months to another continent isnt that much of an option ;)

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Got ya, makes sense! I saw "San Francisco" and didn't realize you were going back to Europe! :)

 

Work out something with Robert on his package, it's a KILLER deal!

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Got ya, makes sense! I saw "San Francisco" and didn't realize you were going back to Europe! :)

 

Work out something with Robert on his package, it's a KILLER deal!

Yeah the shoot is in France. But I am coming back here after :)

 

Trust me I am dipping in to every savings account I have to try to afford it. As you know film school students are not famous for their unlimited budgets ;)

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There was a guy in France who had a small studio and business renting Eclair, Aaton, and stocking Eclair parts. But he just sold his Eclair parts stock, and I can't fiind his website.

 

His email. "gerard galle" <abc.gerard@cegetel.net>

Website...http://www.art-medias.com

 

As a student, what about you reach out to film schools in France, see if you can do a student "co-pro", rent their gear cheap, give a couple of French students something to do on the project......Perhaps your Proff' or project supervisor could help set that up. It would be a very cool thing to do, giving a precedent and perhaps template for other projects.

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Hi Carl,

 

The following set is for sale::

 

 

1.) Eclair ACL1,5, Super16 conversion by Les Bosher.

This is my backup camera besides my ACL 2 Super16, which I will keep.

It's a light weight set up with small motor 25 f/s, small finder, on bord battery, handle.

Two 200ft. and one or two 400ft. mags included.

Interchangeable lens mount, comes with cameflex and Arri standard and bayonet adapter.

Weight: Body, 200ft mag. motor, finder 3,6 kg only,

I used it mainly hand held, comfortable on your shoulder.

Ready to shoot. Asked price 900 Euro.

There are more parts available, camera could be upgraded with heavy duty motor 8-75 f/s

and fully rotatable Angenieux finder.

 

2.) ACL 2, R16, latest model, heavy duty motor 8-75 f/s and fully rotatable Angenieux finder.

Cameflex and Arri standard and bayonet mount adapter.

battery, handle, two 200ft. and one or twoo 400ft. mags included.

Ready to shoot. Asked price 700 Euro.

 

3.) Angenieux Zoom 1,6-2,2 / 9,5-57mm

 

4.) Canon Zoom T 2,1 / 7-56mm

 

I'm located in Kiel, Germany (ferry port for Göteborg / Sweden).

 

If you are interested, I could email pics.

 

Cheers,

Volker

volker.bendt@web.de

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Another vote for the ACL here. It's more comfortable than the NPR for handheld, as it's essentially a kind of prototype for what Aaton would eventually make (same engineers). Ergonomically speaking, it's a very similar design, meant to be comfortable on the shoulder. Quick-release mags, and the lens mounts are super flexible. C-mount is built in, and there's a larger screw-ring around that for holding a variety of adapters for PL, Arri, Cannon, Nikon, Arri B. It's quiet and they can be had quite cheaply. They seem to sell for under $2000 fairly regularly, usually with a case and a few mags. You definitely want an ACL II or a "1.5" (which is basically an ACL 1 with a heavy-duty motor and a couple other minor features - important since you can pull a 400' reel with that motor). Get French-made mags if you can. they're better.

 

Super 16 is nice, but in my opinion a little overrated these days. Since *most* people are not blowing up to 35mm anymore, and because modern film stocks and scanners are so much better what was available 20, 30 years ago, you can shoot on a normal 16mm camera and still get a widescreen scan that looks great. You're not gaining a whole lot from that extra bit of real estate on the film (you're getting something, just not enough to be worth it, IMHO), like you were when you needed to avoid golfball sized grain on a blowup. Super16 cameras are more expensive, but more importantly, everyone wants the lenses for their digital cameras so the market for good used glass is kind of ridiculous right now.

Edited by Perry Paolantonio

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So, accepting that the thread title may be misleading..an Aaton may be the camera you want anyway.. These thoughts, similar to what is already offered...

 

An ACL of any sort would be very handy in a tight spot with 200' mags. That would be my choice if I was doing a ride along in a vintage racecar with the camera jamed under my armpit or down in the passenger footwell. You can have a basic video tap for framing which may help.

 

A Beaulieu R16 is a nice tiny camera which allows more extreme versions of the same thing. But no video tap. Hard to clean the gate on an R16 by the way.

 

Choosing between ACLs. An old ACL I version that is well maintained is fine with English 400' mags. On proviso that the mags are maintained. Like that, it is a very light, nimble camera. But the original motors were sync speed only. Add the heavier multispeed motor, better view finder, video tap and monitor, ergonomic handle...and the weight goes up.

 

An ACL with 200' mags is much smaller than an Aaton. It's more like an Aminima. Without the cost and without the A/B wind agony.

 

As has been said. All ACLs have a camera lens port system that allows almost any lens if you have the right camera mount adapter. And it's all cheap now, used.

 

Of course, Aaton has better ergonomics on the shoulder. You will feel good when you shoot your long interviews in the pits. And you will curse it when you are shooting your ride alongs, unless you like it so much you will happily suffer for it. Or perhaps you did not have a mind for extreme camera angles in the first place. Aaton is a relatively bulky camera.

 

The ride alongs sound like so much fun. If you are awake, you may spot some wonderful opportunities to shoot abstract images that really well express some of the physical conditions, and the condition of mind of the drivers. Something like a macro ECU of eye, face, nose, fingers in the foreground with melted, flowing, flickering background passing rappidly by.

 

A licence to have fun. Dangerous.

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Hi Carl,

 

The following set is for sale::

 

 

1.) Eclair ACL1,5, Super16 conversion by Les Bosher.

This is my backup camera besides my ACL 2 Super16, which I will keep.

It's a light weight set up with small motor 25 f/s, small finder, on bord battery, handle.

Two 200ft. and one or two 400ft. mags included.

Interchangeable lens mount, comes with cameflex and Arri standard and bayonet adapter.

Weight: Body, 200ft mag. motor, finder 3,6 kg only,

I used it mainly hand held, comfortable on your shoulder.

Ready to shoot. Asked price 900 Euro.

There are more parts available, camera could be upgraded with heavy duty motor 8-75 f/s

and fully rotatable Angenieux finder.

 

2.) ACL 2, R16, latest model, heavy duty motor 8-75 f/s and fully rotatable Angenieux finder.

Cameflex and Arri standard and bayonet mount adapter.

battery, handle, two 200ft. and one or twoo 400ft. mags included.

Ready to shoot. Asked price 700 Euro.

 

3.) Angenieux Zoom 1,6-2,2 / 9,5-57mm

 

4.) Canon Zoom T 2,1 / 7-56mm

 

I'm located in Kiel, Germany (ferry port for Göteborg / Sweden).

 

If you are interested, I could email pics.

 

Cheers,

Volker

volker.bendt@web.de

 

I am interested in both.

 

you can send photos to carl.oven@gmail.com please.

 

C

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So, accepting that the thread title may be misleading..an Aaton may be the camera you want anyway.. These thoughts, similar to what is already offered...

 

An ACL of any sort would be very handy in a tight spot with 200' mags. That would be my choice if I was doing a ride along in a vintage racecar with the camera jamed under my armpit or down in the passenger footwell. You can have a basic video tap for framing which may help.

 

A Beaulieu R16 is a nice tiny camera which allows more extreme versions of the same thing. But no video tap. Hard to clean the gate on an R16 by the way.

 

Choosing between ACLs. An old ACL I version that is well maintained is fine with English 400' mags. On proviso that the mags are maintained. Like that, it is a very light, nimble camera. But the original motors were sync speed only. Add the heavier multispeed motor, better view finder, video tap and monitor, ergonomic handle...and the weight goes up.

 

An ACL with 200' mags is much smaller than an Aaton. It's more like an Aminima. Without the cost and without the A/B wind agony.

 

As has been said. All ACLs have a camera lens port system that allows almost any lens if you have the right camera mount adapter. And it's all cheap now, used.

 

Of course, Aaton has better ergonomics on the shoulder. You will feel good when you shoot your long interviews in the pits. And you will curse it when you are shooting your ride alongs, unless you like it so much you will happily suffer for it. Or perhaps you did not have a mind for extreme camera angles in the first place. Aaton is a relatively bulky camera.

 

The ride alongs sound like so much fun. If you are awake, you may spot some wonderful opportunities to shoot abstract images that really well express some of the physical conditions, and the condition of mind of the drivers. Something like a macro ECU of eye, face, nose, fingers in the foreground with melted, flowing, flickering background passing rappidly by.

 

A licence to have fun. Dangerous.

A few things. Where does one get 200ft rolls? I can only see daylight spools or 400ft.

 

For school work we have some amazing PL lenses for our Arri 416, so I think that the Eclair would be a better choice, just for that.

 

C

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You may have to spool the 200' rolls yourself, or get a lab to do that for you if you aren't confident. Everyone used to do this kind of thing in the old(en) days. Everyone was familiar with handling film, cutting their work prints, looking at their negatives, so on. Now people are less familiar. But you could do it. There are threads on the forum about it. Read those and ask any questions.

 

I am a fan of the lens mount system on the ACL. Being able to use the PL mount lenses from school sounds great. But there are plenty of Aatons with a PL hard mount. And the PL mount adapter for the ACL is the more expensive one on eBay. They do come up as a separate item if you are patient. You could also ask the forum to see if someone has one for sale. But the best approach is to find an ACL that has all the components that you want.

 

There are 200' metal daylight spools. This can help. Not that hard to find once you start finding them.

Edited by Gregg MacPherson

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You may have to spool the 200' rolls yourself, or get a lab to do that for you if you aren't confident. Everyone used to do this kind of thing in the old(en) days. Everyone was familiar with handling film, cutting their work prints, looking at their negatives, so on. Now people are less familiar. But you could do it. There are threads on the forum about it. Read those and ask any questions.

 

I am a fan of the lens mount system on the ACL. Being able to use the PL mount lenses from school sounds great. But there are plenty of Aatons with a PL hard mount. And the PL mount adapter for the ACL is the more expensive one on eBay. They do come up as a separate item if you are patient. You could also ask the forum to see if someone has one for sale. But the best approach is to find an ACL that has all the components that you want.

 

There are 200' metal daylight spools. This can help. Not that hard to find once you start finding them.

 

I don't mind doing it myself, to learn it. But I am just wondering how. If I would order a 400 roll and then try to figure out how much 200ft is, or if you would do two daylight spools and attach together.

 

Yeah I think the ACL would be a better option, if not only for the fact that the Aaton Robert was selling probably went to someone that could offer more money (the struggle of a film school student).

 

I did find a new PL to C mount adapter at B&H, and considering the quality of the PL lenses we have I think it is a steal. But I still would want a S16 model rather than the standard 4:3, if not only, for the fact of getting the “cinematic feel”.

 

C

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You have to spool down single-perf film twice to get the perfs back on the correct side. But as Gregg says your lab would probably do it for you as a favour. They have the handling equipment.

I could do it myself but I'm cheating- I have a Steenbeck. But then I don't have a camera that takes long rolls.

Edited by Mark Dunn

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You have to spool down single-perf film twice to get the perfs back on the correct side. But as Gregg says your lab would probably do it for you as a favour. They have the handling equipment.

I could do it myself but I'm cheating- I have a Steenbeck. But then I don't have a camera that takes long rolls.

 

I usually develop through school. They have a decent deal with FotoKem, but I am not sure they would offer this, so it would probably be all up to me; maybe I can convice our FilmPost department to help out.

 

C

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@ Carl,

 

Search the forum and there is lots on spooling off. Useful info, and also non useful advice from those who do not know. Entertaining. Search first, then ask.

 

Google search..."cinematography.com spooling down film" and you see http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=63513

 

Start with Perry's post, #3. Though he says do it slow, I did it quite fast and never had any trouble with static. I'm sure there is advice in this or another forum topic on how to get the right amount of footage on a roll. Have search, read and ask any questions.

 

Spool off in a darkroom using a set of rewinds. Darkrooms can be improvised.

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