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Who does Canon scoopic super 16 upgrades?


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5 hours ago, Ezra Bassin-Hill said:

it's interesting you're claiming your misinformation on s16 gate size was a typo when you had said the exact same wrong size before. I think you might need to take a big step back and learn to admit mistakes as well as maybe take a break from the responding to us "helpless" souls.

First you want a camera with an adjustable shutter angle (shutter speed), which none of the cameras discussed can do. Yet ALL cameras at higher or lower FPS will of course have a different relative shutter speed. 

I didn’t realize the EBM has a 170° shutter, but am I correct in assuming it’s tied to the pull down mechanism and isn’t variable?

I also like to utilize narrower or wider shutters at my discretion for the effects. 

You can absolutely select the relative shutter in a reflex mirror camera which is why i’m looking for one.

Then you claim you're looking for a professional tool, but the S/M is not a professional camera anymore, it's a hobbyist camera due to the lack of having the features you discuss above/below. 

I’m looking for a small lightweight 16mm camera w a 180° shutter(at least) , selectable frame rate, runs daylight spools, has 100% accurate video assist for framing.

 I’m looking for a professional tool.

Then you throw the Bolex under the bus and in the same sentence state that you think this heavily modified ST will have more value? 

super 16 pl mount arri st has actual value whereas a bolex will get rented to students or something.

For someone who works in the film industry, why don't you start by explaining your application (something I've asked many times but never got an answer to) so that we can help guide you into a camera system that WILL work. Just because Visual Products and Du-All have been successful at making a camera similar to what you want, doesn't mean they work well. 

 

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On 5/1/2021 at 11:19 AM, Tyler Purcell said:

First you want a camera with an adjustable shutter angle (shutter speed), which none of the cameras discussed can do. Yet ALL cameras at higher or lower FPS will of course have a different relative shutter speed. 

I didn’t realize the EBM has a 170° shutter, but am I correct in assuming it’s tied to the pull down mechanism and isn’t variable?

I also like to utilize narrower or wider shutters at my discretion for the effects. 

You can absolutely select the relative shutter in a reflex mirror camera which is why i’m looking for one.

Then you claim you're looking for a professional tool, but the S/M is not a professional camera anymore, it's a hobbyist camera due to the lack of having the features you discuss above/below. 

I’m looking for a small lightweight 16mm camera w a 180° shutter(at least) , selectable frame rate, runs daylight spools, has 100% accurate video assist for framing.

 I’m looking for a professional tool.

Then you throw the Bolex under the bus and in the same sentence state that you think this heavily modified ST will have more value? 

super 16 pl mount arri st has actual value whereas a bolex will get rented to students or something.

For someone who works in the film industry, why don't you start by explaining your application (something I've asked many times but never got an answer to) so that we can help guide you into a camera system that WILL work. Just because Visual Products and Du-All have been successful at making a camera similar to what you want, doesn't mean they work well. 

 

You’re still talking to me? I really suggest getting outside...

It’s clear you’re dead set on being a a keeper of the regular 16mm gate. Pun intended.

 

i look forward to your youtube channel where you claim the wrong film gate dimensions then say it was a typo.

 

as far as the bolex, you tried to get me on board with one then when i asked to see the stuff you’d shot on you said, i never do and sent links to student projects.

 

i’ve come to grips with not having selectable shutter so everything else being equal I still believe the arri 16s modified is a better camera for my purposes, which I’ll remind you, you don’t need to know, but I did tell you enough. And you were helpful, the EBM is interesting and if my arri 16s plan doesn’t work I might go that direction.

 

I appreciated Dom letting me know the reasons behind why a newly manufactured shutter might be needed as well as the scratching and scuffing issue as opposed to your ambiguous and authoritative “if you want your film destroyed” comment.

 

we’re here looking for info on film and tools. Why does it have to be taken so personally? You’d be doing a load of good if you’d explain your thoughts more. Why do you believe that despite evidence of successful conversions it won’t work now? 

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Here is an example for 7219, r16 with Angenieux 12-120 at 2.8. It was scanned on Scanity at 4k.

Both were scans from 1 light 16mm print so no DI finish.

Password is suffragette 

Hope it helps.

 

 

 

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As an actual owner of a couple of Scoopic M & MS converted to U16 by Bernie I think I can comment on the original topic. Bernie did not convert Scoopics to S16, period. As a matter of fact Bernie prefers converting cameras like the Arri SR, Krasnogorsk 3 and Eclair NPR to U16 because it's easier. You don't have to offset the lens, you just widen the gate and there you go. You get a wider image that allows you to extract a 1.85:1 or 1.78:1 image talking advantage of the sides of the frame, getting a wider image which means more actual resolution and more pixels.

The Scoopic can't be converted to S16 because the lens is fixed on the camera. When you have a mount and lenses that can can be mounted you can modify the mount to recenter the lens, which would be pretty much impossible without heavily modifying the Scoopic. Another reason is the at the 12.5mm position the lens barely covers the U16 area which is smaller than the S16 one. At the 12.5mm position the image starts to vignette on the sides and the image gets softer on those areas. Everybody knows that if you convert a camera to S16 you have to get lenses that cover that area or you are going to get a vignette on the sides.

The viewfinder of the Scoopic can't be widened to display the U16 area neither because of the way the camera was constructed and again Bernie did not offer this modification. Bernie is famous for his laser brighten process on focusing screens that makes them brighter and easier to work with, but he did not offer that service for the Scoopic cameras, but I have to say he did a great job with my NPR.

I mean there is nothing impossible, if you have tons of money and you find the right person you could modify the camera, which is very logical and old technology by the way, but is it worth it? If you really like the Scoopics because they are easy to load or something like that then get a Scoopic Sound. Some Scoopic Sound cameras came with a Canon bayonet mount , at least you can modify the mount and use a lens that would cover the S16 area.

Talking about the difference between R16 cropped to 1.78:1 I agree that the image is going to be similar to S16, even when it's not the same for several reasons, but exposing film correctly it's going to help you to get more professional results than anything else. A lot of people don't compensate for light lost on the prism (M has T stops I know) Don't compensate for the actual shutter speed of the camera (170° on the M) or they may want to us the internal meter which in my opinion is not reliable even If it has been calibrated. If you get under exposed images and then you bring exposure back in post you are going to get more grain and S16 is not going to do much to compensate for that really. If you expose R16 properly, close down the lens a bit to it's sweet spot, expose properly and stuff like that and then crop you can get good results for sure. It's a chain of small elements what makes the difference in my opinion.

Edited by Ruben Arce
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14 hours ago, Ezra Bassin-Hill said:

You’re still talking to me? I really suggest getting outside...

Yep, spent the whole weekend outside hiking. 

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It’s clear you’re dead set on being a a keeper of the regular 16mm gate. Pun intended.

No, just dead set on insuring people don't blow a lot of money on projects which lead to nowhere. 

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i look forward to your youtube channel where you claim the wrong film gate dimensions then say it was a typo.

Well lucky for youtube, my keyboard skills on my broken left hand, don't come into play. 

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as far as the bolex, you tried to get me on board with one then when i asked to see the stuff you’d shot on you said, i never do and sent links to student projects.

Remember, with film it's the lenses and the emulsion that create the image, not the camera body. To say you need to see something shot on a particular camera, is a very "digital" mentality. What ya need to know is what lens and stock they shot with a long with the scanner used. Those are the critical things on film. 

I sent you two professional production links, one about students who shoot on film and one about a professional director whose film I shot won the LA International Film festival. All of which of course, was shot on film. Both videos were self produced because I enjoy telling stories about filmmakers. I can probably dig up a few music videos shot with my camera from other directors who have borrowed it over the years. Heck, I shot a music video with my K3 few years ago that came out great. 

In the professional world, nobody wants to hear the camera run AND capturing dialog on set is very important. Having a great video tap, wireless system, integrated light-weight battery solution, 400ft magazines, orientable viewfinder/extension system, dovetail/rail system, mattebox, wireless follow focus, these are all critical things to a professional production. This is why I don't use my Bolex on a professional shoot, people would laugh me out of the production. So yea, I use my XTR nearly all of the time, I don't get the option to shoot with the Bolex ever. I showed you what the Bolex is good for and the material you saw was a good representation. 

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i’ve come to grips with not having selectable shutter so everything else being equal I still believe the arri 16s modified is a better camera for my purposes, which I’ll remind you, you don’t need to know, but I did tell you enough. And you were helpful, the EBM is interesting and if my arri 16s plan doesn’t work I might go that direction.

 All I got from you was that in your country (whatever that means since you spend a lot of time in LA) the ST  would be a great rental alternative to a professional camera. But what your expectations on what you can do with it are dramatically over estimated. Which is why I was simply asking what kind of productions you would be shooting and why you think this camera when modified would work for you. Every question I had, was responded with frustratingly purposeful vagueness. 

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I appreciated Dom letting me know the reasons behind why a newly manufactured shutter might be needed as well as the scratching and scuffing issue as opposed to your ambiguous and authoritative “if you want your film destroyed” comment.

I mean, how many times does someone need to say "It's a bad idea"  before you listen? At least you're listening now that other people have confirmed what I've been saying for what, 4 days now? 

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we’re here looking for info on film and tools. Why does it have to be taken so personally? You’d be doing a load of good if you’d explain your thoughts more. Why do you believe that despite evidence of successful conversions it won’t work now? 

If everyone simply gave "some" details in their first and only post about a particular subject... than it would solve ALL problems. Example for your case would be;

"Hi, I use to work on film years ago, I'm just getting back into it. I have an old Arri S/M (my version is called an ST) that works great and I want to shoot some MOS productions with it. I want a super light hand held camera that shoots 100ft spools and uses PL lenses with super 16. I'm not sure if this is the right camera for me, but I figured I'd come on here and ask if any of this is possible". 

That's all you needed to say. In literally 3 sentences you have answered all of our questions and now it's time for us to answer yours. 

Instead you made 3 different posts on here, one looking for advice with super 8, one looking for a technician and one about converting your ST to S16. You then made similar posts on FB, to which nobody responded with anything worthwhile because you never gave them any reasoning for why you wanted to do what you want to do. Then when I asked your reasoning,  you were horribly vague. I would expect a professional in the industry to be much more forthcoming with their ideas. I mean that's what we all do right? We think through things constantly, being a camera person or on a camera team is all about problem solving. Wouldn't you be all excited about your project and the reasoning behind why you want to do what you want to do? I remember a few years ago, someone came on here wanting to heavily modify a Bolex. When we asked why, he wrote 2 paragraphs about it being the lightest thing his drone could take. So this guy had zero choice, it was about weight, rather than anything else. But his explanation made sense and because he wasn't vague at all, we were able to dial in his needs perfectly and he was very happy with the results. 

So here we are, your message has been spread on multiple platforms and in the end, you haven't found any real resolution besides someone who says they'll help ya. Both Dom and Jeff from Du-All who has one, said the job requires a new mirror from scratch, besides a whole heck of a lot of other things AND a high likelihood of film damage would still occur. There may have been a few of these cameras modified by different techs over the years, but it's clear they were not a good platform to modify. Maybe 20 years ago when S16 cameras were horribly expensive, it made sense and people took the risk. But today when for $10k you can buy a sync sound S16 camera like an SRII or something like that, why would ya bother modifying an older camera design? 

Sorry for the long winded answer and being curt. It was not my intention. We were having a conversation until you didn't answer any questions and disappeared. I mean is that how you work with other people on set?

Edited by Tyler Purcell
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The Arriflex 16 St is a not so good camera in several points. One is the hidden pull springs to the film side guide leaf, a user-unfriendly construction. One is the primitive fixation of the sprocket-rollers guide arm. One is the not existing enclosure of the mechanism or its openness to the motor port. All sorts of debris, dust, and snow can fly in there, if you’re not cautious enough. Another weakness is the error with the metric counter, it’s 7 % off. The imperial counter is accurate. I could enumerate more details.

A 16mm camera somewhat underrated is the Kodak Reflex Special. Kept in shape it’s a sturdy and rather quiet apparatus you can have crystal controlled. Unfortunately not easy to come by

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2 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

A 16mm camera somewhat underrated is the Kodak Reflex Special.

Very interesting, I never even heard of that one before. I wonder if they just weren't used very much due to the Auricon and CP cameras?

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I believe Visual Products was successful at making one Scoopic MS Super 16. It was ridiculously complicated, expensive and time consuming to do and I don't think it made sense to do for anyone else. It was on sale on eBay like 6 years ago maybe?

I remember seeing it clearly because I'd always heard it was impossible.

Ultra 16 all day long...no need to recenter the lens.

Edited by Will Montgomery
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