Pyxis 6k

[Aapo Lettinen]

They seem to be still using the same over a decade old Pocket sensor technology... basically it is just the full frame Pocket with fixed display, no hdmi, larger sized and couple of other quirks. The price is not bad but I don't see that much value on this camera other than it might be slightly easier and more secure to rig and it may look cooler to uneducated people so one's customers might think it is "better camera" because it looks "more professional" to them 😄 actually the fanboys seem to think that this would be technologically much better than the PocketFF because it looks "cooler" when they seem to be exactly the same sensor and processing wise.

I would had hoped more dynamic range (15 stops would be standard nowadays for stuff which tries to give an impression of being even remotely 'professional'), higher fps capabilities (the 60fps-ish is just very very basic. any camera in the price range can do that and one generally would need 100fps in 4k on shoots where this kind of camera would be useful) and a display which could be flipped over and secured so that it is not exposed to damages when one actually rigs this thing to something or tries to handheld operate it (no one could operate the camera using a display fixed on the side of the camera and it will absolutely get damaged in use and when transporting it). A separate viewfinder or monitor is a must for the onboard display being completely useless for shooting. could be handy for playback of course which is probably how they intended it being used

 

Edited April 16 by Aapo Lettinen

[David Sekanina]

Then just don't buy it. This forum has really become a troll-farm - I'm out.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

I just bought a 6KFF "Cinema" for a Doc I fly out to next Monday, and to be honest, I would rather it be the new Pyxis camera. The addition of SDI is great and has been much overdue, as has the TC in port. The Dual CF-Express as well is a vital feature if you are doing any kind of interview or filming which can't be stopped as easily (the idea of using USB to a external drive is a failure point that I'm glad I can avoid with cards). The ability to have a VF (even if it costs 1/2 as much as the body!) is also amazing. I'm also betting we will see 3rd party options for VF using USB-C in time. I think it's a great upgrade. I would have prefered an interchangeable mount, but I guess with L Mount that doesn't really matter. I think the screen on both the new Ursa and the Pixi camera, as I'm calling it, is a little silly-- I would have preferred something more akin to what you get on an Alexa with quick access to settings vs a video display. I do hope there is a LCD lock feature so you don't fat finger or fat face it.

As for frame rates, Rarely do I have a personal need for higher than 60, to be honest, mostly everything I shoot is at 24 or 23.97. I think it's a great new upgrade, even if I'm a little annoyed that it rendered my just purchased 6kFF... well basically worthless. That said I'll be picking one up and I'm thrilled at least that most of the accessories I got for the 6KFF will transfer over to the Pixi camera-- Minus the cage and Vmount/GoldMount stuff I got.

Apparently their new sensor stuff is in the 12K, which makes sense. I don't think I've ever been wont for more dynamic range out of a camera in ages. If anything when I'm on something like the new Alexa 35 I'm personally a little overwhelmed with the 17 stops and I don't always like the notion that exposure choices I make on set can be so easily.... undone, in post.

[Tyler Purcell]

14 hours ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

They seem to be still using the same over a decade old Pocket sensor technology...

Nope, the 4k pocket imager was from Sony. The 6k was their first internal designed imager. 

The original 6k camera came out in fall 2019, so we're talking 5 years ago. The FF variant came out in September 2023, so this all-new imager is less than a year old. 

Your argument about the imager being old, is literally the reason why David is calling you a troll. The original pocket, the 4k pocket and the 6k pocket, have entirely different imager technologies, they aren't even REMOTELY close outside of being Bayer pattern imagers. 

14 hours ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

basically it is just the full frame Pocket with fixed display, no hdmi, larger sized and couple of other quirks.

The pocket cinema camera design is horrible. Nobody liked it. Not only was there not enough room to put a decent sized battery, but the screen on the back prevented anyone from using it, WITH a decent sized battery. The. body shape wasn't good for anything and everyone complained for years about it, which actually drove DOWN sales. Blackmagic was struggling to sell them, hence the price cuts seemingly every 6 months. Also, HDMI? What planet are you on? Nobody wants HDMI, not a single person on the planet wants it. The display on the side, is because you would need some way to access the touch screen menus. Red do this by having a little tiny display that nobody can even see on the top, really bogus. The solution can't be on the back, where would the battery go? So they threw it on the side and SURE, they could have made it flip out, but that would take up a lot of space and they NEED that space for the cooling system. Clearly a gen 2 camera would probably have a fold out screen as an upgrade, as well as ND filters. 

 

14 hours ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

The price is not bad but I don't see that much value on this camera other than it might be slightly easier and more secure to rig and it may look cooler to uneducated people so one's customers might think it is "better camera" because it looks "more professional" to them 😄 actually the fanboys seem to think that this would be technologically much better than the PocketFF because it looks "cooler" when they seem to be exactly the same sensor and processing wise.

Umm, the original camera ergonomically is trash, complete throw away design. Nobody in their right mind would buy one unless they had no choice. This box camera, has a beautiful OLED viewfinder, cheese plate and handle accessories, which are awesome. No need for a cage. Add your favorite bottom/rail kit to it and you're in business for full fledged shoulder shooting, something that is 100% impossible on a pocket, unless you really wish to look like an idiot.

Also since the announcement only a few short months ago of the 6k FF camera, BMD have added a feature in Resolve that gets rid of the rolling shutter issue automatically when playing back the footage in your timeline. It's a check box for gosh sakes, so it creates an image that is just like a global shutter camera. The function had been there for stabilization, but they added the function for removing global shutter. This makes the 19MS refresh of the 6k open gate imager, not be a problem anymore.

Plus, the double card slots are a HUGE benefit. When shooting open gate 6k, you do gobble up quite a bit of storage. Having it automatically split the clip between two cards, is vital... let me repeat; 100% must have, for anyone serious person doing interviews. I can't tell you how many times I've had to swap cards on Red cameras, but never on double card Sony's. To me, the double card feature is worth the upgrade and another reason I would have never bought that pocket version.  

14 hours ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

I would had hoped more dynamic range (15 stops would be standard nowadays for stuff which tries to give an impression of being even remotely 'professional'),

The only camera that hits 15 stops of usable dynamic range (without cheating like the Reds do) is the Alexa 35. It's a $80k camera when built. 

The Venice 2 and Burnao? 13 stops of usable DR. 
Sony FX9? 12 stops of usable DR. 
The Red Raptor? 13 stops of usable DR. 
Arri Alexa mini and OG LF ? 14 stops of usable DR. 

So where are these magical 15 stops of DR cameras? I would DIE to know what cameras you're talking about, they surely aren't DSLR's either, as all the DSLR's we've tested, are in the 11 - 12 stop range, even with HDR mode on.

The brand new Blackmagic 12k, boasts 16 stops, but I bet it has 14 in real life. That would put it better than all of the competitors, but the Arri Alexa 35 for what, 1/8th the cost?

The pocket 6k full frame has an advertised 13 stops of dynamic range, the same guys that performed the tests above, wait for it, say it has 12 stops of dynamic range and the only reason they didn't say 13 stops, is because they felt the blacks at 13 stops were too muddy, there is just less definition than expected. 
 

14 hours ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

higher fps capabilities (the 60fps-ish is just very very basic.

Yes, this one pet peeve I agree with. I do think they could have done higher speeds. It does feel like a cop out. I think they chose not to, purposely so they could still sell their pocket inventory. Had they made the new camera much faster in that way, the pocket would be worthless and they have a lot of inventory to sell still. So this first generation of Pyxis camera, will be updated shortly I bet, once they run out of older cameras to sell. It would be easy to drop a faster processor in there. 

14 hours ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

(no one could operate the camera using a display fixed on the side of the camera and it will absolutely get damaged in use and when transporting it). 

I will have that issue fixed in 10 seconds using my 3d printer and 4 magnets. I bet Blackmagic will have a fix even faster than I can get ahold of one. 

[Aapo Lettinen]

On 4/17/2024 at 1:57 AM, Tyler Purcell said:

Your argument about the imager being old, is literally the reason why David is calling you a troll

Oh it might have been the meme I included in the original post, removed it because the audience was clearly wrong and it was not even the funniest one 🙂

still would had hoped the camera had BOTH the hdmi AND the sdi. would make it much easier for people with dslr background who likely have all their existing accessories with hdmi connectors.

Anyway, great that we created at least some amount of good conversation after all!  Personally not sure about the viability of the Pyxis design but surely it fits at least some special purposes. Would had hoped for a better sensor, the backup HDMI along with the existing SDI connectors and some kind of good wifi remote control similar than z-cams etc have. would make it so much easier to rig and use. the OLPF is good as well as the L-mount which is easy to convert to PL and most stills mounts. easy to use for indie and documentary stuff.

and clearly an improvement over the Pocket line of cameras if SDI is useful and the box design makes sense for the use scenarios

 

Edited April 21 by Aapo Lettinen

[Tyler Purcell]

On 4/20/2024 at 7:47 PM, Aapo Lettinen said:

Anyway, great that we created at least some amount of good conversation after all!  Personally not sure about the viability of the Pyxis design but surely it fits at least some special purposes.

It's basically the same shape as nearly all the professional cinema cameras have been for the last what, 8 years or so? 

It also has a good OLED viewfinder system, something only Arri really has. 

On 4/20/2024 at 7:47 PM, Aapo Lettinen said:

Would had hoped for a better sensor, the backup HDMI along with the existing SDI connectors and some kind of good wifi remote control similar than z-cams etc have. would make it so much easier to rig and use. the OLPF is good as well as the L-mount which is easy to convert to PL and most stills mounts. easy to use for indie and documentary stuff.

The new sensor will come, BMD aren't going to give up on that aspect. I'm certain it will be one of their fancy new imagers like the 12k. SDI is the industry standard, HDMI is long dead and only exists for consumer equipment. People with HDMI monitors, aren't going to be buying a $5k camera (how much it actually costs to use) and then not buy a $549 SDI monitor along with it. The DSLR crowd is entirely different and most of them HATE HDMI and would sell all of their HDMI gear if they could have a camera with SDI, even mini-BNC. 

[Jon O'Brien]

Looks like a great addition to the cinema camera line up. Blackmagic is a fantastic Australian company that go from strength to strength. I've been saying for ages why persist with the DSLR-style still camera shape for a professional video camera? Beloved of still photographers who decide to get into video as well I think must be the answer. These filmmakers don't use a VF or heavy batteries and it all seems to be mostly hand held work, with some gimbal. Never see them with a VF, a tripod, or a shoulder mount. To each their own.

Aapo, did you draw that strange creature holding the camera? Looks like a cross between a lizard, a dinosaur, and Batman -- not a kangaroo. Good to give drawing one a go, though.

On 4/17/2024 at 8:57 AM, Tyler Purcell said:

 The only camera that hits 15 stops of usable dynamic range (without cheating like the Reds do) is the Alexa 35. It's a $80k camera when built. 

The Venice 2 and Burnao? 13 stops of usable DR. 
Sony FX9? 12 stops of usable DR. 
The Red Raptor? 13 stops of usable DR. 
Arri Alexa mini and OG LF ? 14 stops of usable DR. 

So where are these magical 15 stops of DR cameras? I would DIE to know what cameras you're talking about, they surely aren't DSLR's either, as all the DSLR's we've tested, are in the 11 - 12 stop range, even with HDR mode on.

The brand new Blackmagic 12k, boasts 16 stops, but I bet it has 14 in real life. That would put it better than all of the competitors, but the Arri Alexa 35 for what, 1/8th the cost?

The pocket 6k full frame has an advertised 13 stops of dynamic range, the same guys that performed the tests above, wait for it, say it has 12 stops of dynamic range and the only reason they didn't say 13 stops, is because they felt the blacks at 13 stops were too muddy, there is just less definition than expected. 

Tyler, what about the Canon C300 Mark III? Many seem to forget about the existence of this excellent camera. How is usable DR calculated from advertised DR? Canon say it gives 16 stops of DR when filming in CLog2 because of its dual gain sensor.

3 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

It also has a good OLED viewfinder system, something only Arri really has. 

Canon definitely provide the C300 Mk III with an excellent OLED VF.

[Jon O'Brien]

On 4/16/2024 at 6:31 PM, David Sekanina said:

Then just don't buy it. This forum has really become a troll-farm - I'm out.

I hope you stay David! I always like reading your posts. You bring valuable and important knowledge, opinions, and information to this forum.

Forgive us our foibles and failings. I know that I sometimes write dumb posts. Oh well.

Edited April 23 by Jon O'Brien

[Tyler Purcell]

1 hour ago, Jon O'Brien said:

Tyler, what about the Canon C300 Mark III? Many seem to forget about the existence of this excellent camera. How is usable DR calculated from advertised DR? Canon say it gives 16 stops of DR when filming in CLog2 because of its dual gain sensor.

The Japanese brands have this weird internal competition and completely negate what the consumer wants. Nobody has really reinvented the wheel since the FS7 came around, what in 2011? Since then, all the cameras have been revisions of one another. Where it's true, the Canon C series are very good cameras, especially the C300MKIII and C500MKII, they are negated because frankly, why wouldn't you buy an FX9 or Red Komodo instead for that kind of money? Price wise, they don't fit into the marketplace at all. They've made a lame duck series of cameras, which as you pointed out, delivers excellent images, but is $3k too high for the market they're targeting. The medium end guys will shoot red and lower end guys can't afford the canon. 

Now to be fair, canon has 4 new cameras releasing this year. The EOS-RMKII, The 5DMKII and two cinema cameras. I'm not sure why they wouldn't bring a new cinema camera to NAB, so to me that was an odd decision in waiting. However, they will never introduce a killer camera for lower price, because they would then not sell any of the cameras they currently make. Canon and Sony purposely limit their lower end cameras so they aren't capable of doing what their higher end cameras can do. 

This is why I like Blackmagic so much, they don't play that game. If they release a better camera that undermines the previous generation, they will keep the pricing the same and they'll just blow out inventory of the older cameras. When I first picked up the Nikon Z9, I was blown away because they don't have any cinema camera. So they took all their high end tech and threw it into a camera and it's incredible. It's even large enough to dissipate heat, so it will record 8k 16 bit raw just like the red does, without any issues. So the Japanese makers CAN make really good cameras, if they didn't fight against one another. Sooner or later, people will simply stop buying their cameras and they'll have to release a small box like the Pyxis for $5k. 

Edited April 23 by Tyler Purcell

[Aapo Lettinen]

8 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

The Japanese brands have this weird internal competition and completely negate what the consumer wants. Nobody has really reinvented the wheel since the FS7 came around, what in 2011? Since then, all the cameras have been revisions of one another. Where it's true, the Canon C series are very good cameras, especially the C300MKIII and C500MKII, they are negated because frankly, why wouldn't you buy an FX9 or Red Komodo instead for that kind of money? Price wise, they don't fit into the marketplace at all. They've made a lame duck series of cameras, which as you pointed out, delivers excellent images, but is $3k too high for the market they're targeting. The medium end guys will shoot red and lower end guys can't afford the canon.

the FS7 was released after the F5 and F55 which were released in 2014. Same sensor than on the F5 but different processing and lower quality sensors overall, they had higher noise level than the F5 sensor had because seemingly they put the off-spec ones to the FS7's and saved the best ones for the more expensive cameras.

The Canon C series cameras are weird indeed, I think they are meant for some kind of hybrid documentary+corporate use which they fit well after you get used to the weird camera shape and operating. I have handled tons of C300mk1 and C200 material, the C300 stuff looked generally really nice and was easy to grade even when the format specs on paper are pretty depressing... low bitrate long gop but when it looked really nice most of the time the audience did not care. very economic to shoot with, great for nature stuff and such. The C200 not that easy to grade, still very nice image quality overall after one gets the perfect grading settings locked down which takes time. most of the basic LUTs looked weird so manual work in post needed. Good camera after that. Not very competitive though when it came out. I know people who shoot feature films with them so very capable cameras still. The main issue with Canons, I think, is that they probably did not know well enough who they wanted to make the camera for so it is a bit of this, bit of that, difficult to figure out until actually shooting something with the thing (to reach that point it would need to be purchased or rented first which may not happen if people struggle to find out what the camera is about)

The FX6 and FX9 type cameras are a perfect fit for TV documentary and reality work, even more so than the FS7 which was also extensively used for that purpose. If watching any kind of reality show which was shot in recent years you can spot it is the FX6 or FX9, almost all the time. For narrative action short some other kind of camera might be more tempting but the Sonys are absolutely killer for documentary/reality stuff. Not the cheapest cameras out there though so working-for-free projects would likely use something else.

 

[Aapo Lettinen]

8 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

 When I first picked up the Nikon Z9, I was blown away because they don't have any cinema camera. So they took all their high end tech and threw it into a camera and it's incredible. It's even large enough to dissipate heat, so it will record 8k 16 bit raw just like the red does, without any issues

that is hard to believe considering how absolute garbage the Z6 camera was. low quality sensors (bad pixels from the factory etc) and wrongly designed sensor electronics with random channel noise/flashing etc.  The dynamic range was really poor, they claimed 14 stops and the real dynamic range was something like 9 stops or so... outright scamming as the real specs were so different from the published ones. Not the most reliable camera either, had to be rebooted now and then though still not that bad. Additionally their image processing was very poor quality, it could remove the black hole sun effect on simple highlight but complex highlights like overexposed tree branches had black edges all over the place as that confused the in-camera processing. Firmware updates did not help. I just got rid of the camera after the indie feature was shot, it felt like escaping the prison when the camera shop accepted it as a trade-in for the Panasonic I have had some years now.

I mean, Panasonic cameras cost less and they never had these things, even the GH3 I first got in 2013 was fine with highlights and did not have reliability problems and bad pixels and no random flashing etc. It was just very reliable camera which delivered images, period. I traded it for GH4 in 2014 which I shot with for almost 10 years, all kind of making of stuff and such. Insanely reliable camera and most of the footage worked perfectly for the application. Just last month I traded the still-working and good condition GH4 for a slightly used GH5s because I wanted better dynamic range and codecs. I expect to use it as a backup and stills camera for years to come.

It is just, pretty much everything but Nikon can be good for movie stuff, only the unreliability and unnecessary image issues drive people away. That said, some of these are the issues of the Blackmagic models too which is why they will never become real professional cameras and will always thay in the low-to-mid level indie and prosume use, maybe sometimes borrowed as a F or G camera for some action scenes in real movies but never used as a A, B or C camera.

When shooting with the GH4, I could shoot about 2.5 hours with a single small onboard battery. that is insane compared to the pocket cameras which drained similar capacity LP6 battery in something like 20 minutes!  if making indie shorts the Pocket would be better image quality wise than, for example, a GH5s but if you need to shoot somewhere remote it may sometimes be good to have a camera which survives the whole shooting day with 3 batteries instead of needing 20 batteries or huge Vlock workarounds to be able to manage without mains power

[Aapo Lettinen]

15 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

Aapo, did you draw that strange creature holding the camera? Looks like a cross between a lizard, a dinosaur, and Batman -- not a kangaroo. Good to give drawing one a go, though.

yeah you see why I like to shoot stuff with cameras instead of trying to draw or paint 😄 

maybe it is a mutated lizard-roo of the radioactive wastelands, who knows 😄

the tail is important to mark out that it is supposed to be something from Australia. otherwise it would just look like a dog with short front legs 😄

 

[Travis Shannon]

15 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Now to be fair, canon has 4 new cameras releasing this year. The EOS-RMKII, The 5DMKII and two cinema cameras.

Sorry did I just fall into a time warp to 2008 or are they reusing the 5DmkII name on another project? 

[Tyler Purcell]

8 hours ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

that is hard to believe considering how absolute garbage the Z6 camera was. low quality sensors (bad pixels from the factory etc) and wrongly designed sensor electronics with random channel noise/flashing etc.  The dynamic range was really poor, they claimed 14 stops and the real dynamic range was something like 9 stops or so... outright scamming as the real specs were so different from the published ones. Not the most reliable camera either, had to be rebooted now and then though still not that bad. Additionally their image processing was very poor quality, it could remove the black hole sun effect on simple highlight but complex highlights like overexposed tree branches had black edges all over the place as that confused the in-camera processing. Firmware updates did not help. I just got rid of the camera after the indie feature was shot, it felt like escaping the prison when the camera shop accepted it as a trade-in for the Panasonic I have had some years now.

Yea I'm new to Nikon digital imaging cameras for sure, but everyone loves the Z9 and Z8 cameras, both MUCH newer tech. 

I'll say this much, the R5 we currently shoot digital on, has to be one of the worst cameras I've ever used in my entire life. It's absolute garbage, horrible borderline unusable noise floor with FPN and pathetically bad rolling shutter that can't be fixed. At least Nikon has the rolling shutter problem solved. You can't even remap Canon cameras to get rid of bad pixels, it automatically does it and if the automatic stuff doesn't work, then you're screwed. No way to fix it. DR is also pathetically poor as well, thanks to the high noise floor. To get HDR you need to take two images which are blended together, like... what? LOL 

So yea, I think all of these cameras struggle with this tech and you kinda just deal with them. 

I couldn't stand the GH4 and GH5 cameras FYI, I thought they were utter garbage when I've shot with them. Panasonic is 3-5 years behind everyone else with their tech. Color science was the worst of any modern digital camera I've shot with and the smaller imager, kinda negates the point of shooting digital anyway. The FF imager is where it's at, especially for wider shots, getting that sweet shallow depth of field. Sony begrudgingly fixed their color science issues over the last few years, so at least they've made a decent camera for once, codec withstanding. 

I look forward to playing with the Z9 when we get it, hopefully by the summer. We would get the newer version (Z8) but it doesn't have the heat dissipation aspects of the Z9, so video is limited. 

To me, the important things are in order; color science, codec, resolution and imager size. 

[Tyler Purcell]

1 hour ago, Travis Shannon said:

Sorry did I just fall into a time warp to 2008 or are they reusing the 5DmkII name on another project? 

Sorry, D5MKII, I'm so use to putting those numbers the old way lol 

[Travis Shannon]

26 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Sorry, D5MKII, I'm so use to putting those numbers the old way lol 

Haha no worries, I was just so confused I had to ask. 

[Jon O'Brien]

8 hours ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

 

I always said Australians have a robust and innovative streak in them. They tend to see things in a unique and fresh way and come up with innovations. But that doesn't extend to field testing cameras by dragging them behind 4WDs haha (they don't call them SUVs in the bush)

[Aapo Lettinen]

3 hours ago, Jon O'Brien said:

I always said Australians have a robust and innovative streak in them. They tend to see things in a unique and fresh way and come up with innovations.

I actually like Atomos products a lot. Have some Rode microphones too but the Rodes have had the same issue than with some Blackmagic products, the quality control can be a bit hit and miss at times and sometimes need to send stuff back for repairs or replacement (like the NTG3 which started to buzz and pop in cold temperatures despite it being specifically made to withstand humidity and cold better than a normal mic. switched to my backup NTG2 which had no problems at all whatsoever. sent the NTG3 for inspection after the shoot but they could not find anything wrong with it. weird stuff all in all )