Carvaggio doesn't need edge light. Why do you?

[Johanan Pandone]

There is nothing in this image I don't love. I don't have a problem with the fact that her hair fades into the background. I love everything about this image. Why do we place such importance on separating subject from background? 

[Jon O'Brien]

Yes good point. Beautiful and simple.

[Albion Hockney]

I think edge lights have very much gone out of fashion for this reason. its not needed and often feels artificial. Backlight is a whole different thing

Edited August 9 by Albion Hockney

[Nicolas POISSON]

I do not think that this is a question of "need" nor of "fashion", but rather of intent. You may add edge light, or drop light, or back-light to separate a subject from the background. You may light the background instead. You can motivate these lights with practicals if you want to sell it more efficiently. You can do this in a very subtle way, or a more apparent manner if you wish it to be more theatrical. You can add no back/drop/edge light at all, and work with depth of field and colour instead. And sure, you can even wish that the subject does not pop out off the background.

I have build a collection of still grabs from reputable movies (blockbusters as well as indie films from all over the world). The strong "kicker" may no longer be fashionable, but using a subtle separation through lighting is still extremely common. It seems separation is often done through drop light, which is what you would expect in the real world with ceiling lights.

There is something to keep in mind, though: when an image is displayed in poor conditions (uncalibrated display, strong ambient light...), you loose a lot of details in the shadows. But as long as the contours are there, you can follow what's going on. Separation using lighting helps a lot in keeping the image readable.

[Mark Dunn]

Bear in mind that the painting probably hasn't been restored and may have centuries of old yellowing varnish. Quite often when cleaned the old masters, I think the expression is "pop". Separation of dark hair from a dark background is usually a major beneficiary- they were meant to separate. Something the likes of us certainly notice.

There are some very good examples on the BBC show "Britain's Lost Masterpieces", which may not be available abroad.

Edited August 9 by Mark Dunn

[Johanan Pandone]

12 hours ago, Nicolas POISSON said:

I have build a collection of still grabs from reputable movies (blockbusters as well as indie films from all over the world). 

Please share some of your favorite stills?

[Nicolas POISSON]

I have hundreds of stills now, there is no best ones. However, I can share a few that are related to this topic.

These pictures are taken from internet, so may not be representative of the movie. I have no clue of the processing done. Some pictures could have been shot by a set photographer with his Nikon Z6.

First, two versions of the same still from the TV series Loki (2021, Dir : Kate Herron, DP : Autumn Durald Arkapaw). The upper one is the original, the lower one is a simulated extremely poor display with a gamma of 3 instead of sRGB standard 2.2. All shadow details are lost. Yet, you still recognize the characters, thanks to the lighting that outlines the contours.

 

Now two pictures from live shows of a Flavia Coelho. In the upper one, there is almost no light separation. Her hair fades with the background, the pictures looks two dimensional. In the lower picture, you can see how back-lighting brings the talent forward. Shallow depth of field also helps.

 

You could argue that for live performances, strong back-lighting is expected and nobody would complain it looks artificial. Well, look at the following grab from Patterson (2016, Dir : J. Jarmusch, DP : Frederick Elmes). Colours are very even, and separation of the woman’s hair is obtained through strong back-lighting again. I do not think it looks artificial : we assume there is some wall lighting right above the frame and on the right as well.

 

Another grab from Patterson : here the girl’s hair is also separated from the background with drop light. It does not look artificial : we do expect light coming from the sky. It is very subtle, but it is essential.

 

A still from Motherless Brooklyn (2019, Dir : Edward Norton, DP : Dick Pope). Here the woman’s hair does not receive any back-light. However, the background is extremely even, a bit blurred with shallow depth of field, and contrast in luma and colour between hair and background is strong enough so that separation is clear. So YES, you do not ALWAYS need to outline edges using lighting.

 

And finally, a perfect example of chiaroscuro in a grab from the same movie. Look at the hat :

- the rear is outlined through lighting over a dark background

- the top and upper front are darker and not outlined, but the background is reflecting a lot of light. This is similar to lighting the background of a talent instead of back-lighting the talent itself.

- the lower front is outlined through lighting, over a darker background. Same technique as the rear.

 

Grab some still of movies you like, and analyse them. You will find that outlining edges with lighting is still extremely common.

Edited August 10 by Nicolas POISSON

[David Mullen ASC]

You can create separation also by glowing a bit of the background behind a dark edge of the subject’s head, so edge lights are not necessary all the time.

There are no rules, sometimes it’s fine to let a dark edge blend into a dark background. Keep in mind that with Rembrandt and Caravaggio, the shadows are not necessarily pure black on the subject nor is the background black so there is detail that creates separation — and with a painting you can take time to study it and notice that.

[David Mullen ASC]

Notice that the dark background wall is slightly less dark than the hair in the foreground.

[silvan schnelli]

Here are two amazing frames by Darius Khondji from Uncut Gems that I think mirrors the painting that you attached. The visible and coarse exertion on Adam Sandler face is also very fitting with Baroque art.

I’m pretty sure Darius Khondji himself takes a lot of inspiration from paintings.