Getting Paid

[Guest]

Phil, I'm not sure why you think payroll companies are a delaying tactic when you usually get your paycheck within four business days.

 

Well exactly, a payroll company means the cheque will be issued on the set pay day. Or....direct deposit which is most often the case. I mean how fast does someone expect an invoice to be paid if they're invoicing anyway? You drop off your invoice at the office and a cheque is cut 5 mins later?

 

R,

[Guest]

I would be reasonably comfortable with the assumption that most people who are referred to as producers on feature films are not very familiar with the concept of tax, at least as it applies to them, and this is therefore fairly difficult to stomach especially in a country where most film producers are publicly funded to some extent.

 

Ah yes those evil producers.....again. We all know crew are perfectly innocent, they would never do anything wrong.

 

R,

[Robin R Probyn]

A large chunk of the British DNA coil is made up of cynicism and a deep mistrust of the "suits".. this has evolved over many hundreds of years of persecution, summary executions ,torture and taxes.. and well.. just existing on a small,dark rainy windswept Island..

 

While you guys have been driving your convertibles down to the beach.. drinking cocktails by the pool .. consorting with bikini clad beauties .. and getting a sun tan..

 

Brits.. give us our swag you Barstools .. the suits.. from our cold dead hands.. you peasants..

 

Americans.. hey dude .. err like would be awesome to get some Benjamin's.. the suits.. Yo.. cool .. I got you covered man.. here take this stack for now.. take my car and girlfriend too..

[Stuart Brereton]

No legit production should be hiring crew members as 1099. This is the arena of tiny indie producers,

 

The first part is correct, but unfortunately hiring crew on 1099 is a widespread practice in the low budget movie world, despite the penalties for getting caught. Far from blackmailing the producers, many crew prefer getting paid this way, as it means their tax money stays in their pockets until April.

[Guest]

A large chunk of the British DNA coil is made up of cynicism and a deep mistrust of the "suits".. this has evolved over many hundreds of years of persecution, summary executions ,torture and taxes.. and well.. just existing on a small,dark rainy windswept Island..

 

While you guys have been driving your convertibles down to the beach.. drinking cocktails by the pool .. consorting with bikini clad beauties .. and getting a sun tan..

 

Brits.. give us our swag you Barstools .. the suits.. from our cold dead hands.. you peasants..

 

Americans.. hey dude .. err like would be awesome to get some Benjamin's.. the suits.. Yo.. cool .. I got you covered man.. here take this stack for now.. take my car and girlfriend too..

 

Robin don't give me any of that. I'm amazed by the defeatist attitude that some of my fellow British display on this board. How did the UK finish 3rd in the medal standings at the Rio games if there is such widespread negativity? Good grief, you don't build the world's biggest and most successful empire with a defeatist negative attitude.

 

I grew up in poverty in a single parent home here in a frozen outpost colony of the empire. I knew no one in the movie industry. Didn't stop me, and still doesn't. Being British has kept me going when the tunnel looked the darkest.

 

R,

[Tyler Purcell]

No legit production should be hiring crew members as 1099. This is the arena of tiny indie producers, in which case you're better off just volunteering your time and avoiding the paperwork. I made a video about this earlier. In general, you don't want to 1099 anyone who is not a true contractor. Not only can the 'employee' turn you in at his own choosing at any time, but YOU (the producer) are the one who will suffer from this by being fined and forced to repay the government all due taxes. NEVER give someone something to hold over your head as leverage, which is exactly what any producer employing people as 1099 are doing.

Where this is true for most physical production on set, it's not true for all the other jobs outside of those few production days. Most production is W2 because if you are being directed to do a job from another individual, you are an "employee" no matter what. However, everything else from pre-production, post-production and distribution, which are 90% of the work, if those people are not on set or working in business environment with a direct supervisor working with them at all times, they are 1099.

 

There are plenty of smaller, good paying gigs which are 1099 or simply cash under the table. If these kind of productions are you only income source, then you don't have much of a choice, volunteering doesn't pay the bills unfortunately.

 

Any producing doing 1099's should be prepared to be blackmailed by their employee at any time, and know that that employee can turn you in any time they want - and the government takes such violations very seriously, no matter how much money you (the producer) has.

As a contractor getting a job done and hoping on the next show you get called back... why would you shoot yourself in the foot by being an butt and call-out the production company on bad business practices? Not only would you loose all that time and effort you put in, but you'd probably be blacklisted as well.

 

Filmmaking is a freelance industry. If you get paid and you get more work in the future from the same production company, you should be happy and continue working for them. How they choose to pay you, has absolutely zero consequence in the long term.

[JD Hartman]

As for Unions, I have no opinion one way or the other. Some are good, some are bad. Some are mandatory, especially here in the US. Want to get any distribution for your film? Chances are you'll need a SAG actor, which means jumping through hoops so large it'd intimidate an Olympic hoop jumper. It's just the nature of the business.

 

Doesn't seem like becoming a SAG signatory is a difficult feat. Just paperwork, actually not even paperwork anymore. https://www.sagaftra.org/production-center/sign-sag-aftra-online

As a Producer have you tried to use SAG/AFTRA talent?

[Robin R Probyn]

 

Robin don't give me any of that. I'm amazed by the defeatist attitude that some of my fellow British display on this board. How did the UK finish 3rd in the medal standings at the Rio games if there is such widespread negativity? Good grief, you don't build the world's biggest and most successful empire with a defeatist negative attitude.

 

I grew up in poverty in a single parent home here in a frozen outpost colony of the empire. I knew no one in the movie industry. Didn't stop me, and still doesn't. Being British has kept me going when the tunnel looked the darkest.

 

R,

 

 

Richard.. it was a stunning display of the great British wit and sarcasm ..

[Guest]

 

 

Richard.. it was a stunning display of the great British wit and sarcasm ..

 

Indeed. :D

 

R,

[Landon D. Parks]

 

Doesn't seem like becoming a SAG signatory is a difficult feat. Just paperwork, actually not even paperwork anymore. https://www.sagaftra.org/production-center/sign-sag-aftra-online

As a Producer have you tried to use SAG/AFTRA talent?

 

I am currently going through the SAG/AFTRA New Media process as a producer for the web series in pre-production now. Actually becoming signatory is not difficult at all - Simply go the website and fill out the form. its the mounds of ongoing work that pose the problems. The entire reason for going SAG now is because we have attached two local SAG actors, so now that becomes a requirement. It's honestly one I'd rather avoid, but as I said above - it's part of the game you have to play.

 

In a file on my desk in front of me is the entire text of the new media agreement, as well as the rule book. The ongoing requirements are fairly stringent, as is what one can do with the final product. The on-set rules are strict and must be followed to a T, lest there be a fine imposed that alone would make up a large portion of the entire budget. Working with children is even harder under SAG, as we have a special young performers handbook and rules in addition to the regular rule-book. SAG rules for minors VAST exceed what I think is nessecary, and certainly outpace what Ohio requires of minor actors by a thousandfold.There has also been some talk of requiring a payroll deposit in addition to the standard payments - meaning we need to possible look at going over-budget right up front to deposit funds into an account where they will sit in case we don't pay everyone, being released as some time after production has ended - a period I have been told varies from a week to 'whenever they are satisfied everything is closed up'.

 

I heard a friend tell me it was 'easy' to become a SAG production company - they get you in the ongoing reporting requirements, restrictions, and such. He was right. But what can you do?

 

In fact, the fact that SAG is so easy to become attached too now is going to send a lot of newbies into a tailspin when they actually reach the production and distribution phase, and realize that SAG now holds a lot of cards over them. It's like those high interest credits cards... Easy as heck to get, just complete the small form... But you don't realize the real cost until you get the first bill.

 

Working with Equity in theatre was much easier. But as I said, it's the nature of the business. Love or hate SAG, there is little choice in many instances.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Landon D. Parks

[Phil Rhodes]

I'm amazed by the defeatist attitude that some of my fellow British display on this board.

Try actually living here - exactly how British are you, in any case? I've detailed my principal specific concerns for this place here, but you can read most of what you need to know into Robin's good-natured expose. British people like to use satire as a way to express genuine grievances, and a very large part of what he's saying is literally true. A lot of the problems with the UK are due to the laziness and ineptitude of the average member of the population, but at least equal amounts are due to the catastrophic level of narcissism, populism and short-term goal-seeking in government. No matter how hard the average UK citizen works, we know it is impossible to achieve reasonable goals without falling to the same level. That's why we're defeatist - we're defeated. We're as defeated as a man buried under a ten thousand ton rock slide.

 

How did the UK finish 3rd in the medal standings at the Rio games if there is such widespread negativity?

By spending unconscionable amounts of public money that's badly needed for essential projects on paying people to take part in running and swimming races, you know, like little five-year-old children do.

In all seriousness, it's been shown that Olympic success can be bought with money, which is why the USA does so well. They're not the most populous country in the world, they don't somehow have the best gene pool to draw from. They're just really interested in sport and therefore willing to spend significant effort on it.

Still, as you say, at least now we've got all those medals we'll be able to fix some of the problems back home.

Oh no. Wait. Hang on.

 

Good grief, you don't build the world's biggest and most successful empire with a defeatist negative attitude.

Define "successful." I would hesitate to use the imperial history of the UK as a model for more or less anything, but in point of fact they didn't. Things have changed. We're now less willing to go and blow people's heads off with weapons so comparatively advanced they don't even understand what's happening to them (although regrettably we're not perhaps as unwilling to do that as we should be).

In defence of the past, I would point out that a few years of being kicked around this toilet of a country will make it clear to anyone that trying to be nice and reasonable about everything will lead to nothing but poverty. Wealth is nothing if it isn't taken from someone else, and the less reasonable the deal for the other guy the better.

 

I grew up in poverty in a single parent home here in a frozen outpost colony of the empire.

So?

 

I knew no one in the movie industry. Didn't stop me, and still doesn't.

The more true that is, the more reasonable it becomes to assume you're just lucky.

 

Being British has kept me going when the tunnel looked the darkest.

If you grew up in Canada, how British can you claim to be?

P

[Tyler Purcell]

In a file on my desk in front of me is the entire text of the new media agreement, as well as the rule book. The ongoing requirements are fairly stringent, as is what one can do with the final product. The on-set rules are strict and must be followed to a T, lest there be a fine imposed that alone would make up a large portion of the entire budget. Working with children is even harder under SAG, as we have a special young performers handbook and rules in addition to the regular rule-book. SAG rules for minors VAST exceed what I think is nessecary, and certainly outpace what Ohio requires of minor actors by a thousandfold.There has also been some talk of requiring a payroll deposit in addition to the standard payments - meaning we need to possible look at going over-budget right up front to deposit funds into an account where they will sit in case we don't pay everyone, being released as some time after production has ended - a period I have been told varies from a week to 'whenever they are satisfied everything is closed up'.

Welcome to "real" production. This is why people can't make $20k movies, because to get anyone who actually knows how to act or be professional on a set, most of the time you're having to deal with one or multiple unions.

 

Union guidelines for SAG adult actors are there to protect from abuses because filmmakers WILL abuse if they can. Child actors have a whole host of other rules and regulations, which are expensive to deal with. From hiring a studio teacher and having a private classroom on location, to having an assistant to the 2nd AD, known as a 2nd 2nd, just to deal with the paperwork on most productions with kids. I just wrapped my 2nd production with kids and it was a real pain to deal with, but we made it work. It cost us around $40k in lost time, fee's and extra union staffing, in order to make it work. However, when you're making a kids movie for real, no weekend warrior bullshit, that's how you NEED to operate.

 

If you use common sense, dealing with SAG actors isn't a problem. You hire a UPM who is familiar with it and you're done. Their assistant takes care of everything and you as the filmmaker simply pay them the money. This is the separation between church and state, in this case production management and "creative" filmmaking. The two jobs are lightyears apart from one another. You are either a businessman dealing with the business aspects like a UPM, putting out fires all day long or you're a filmmaker, dealing with the creative side. Mixing both jobs is nearly impossible. You can't be shooting a movie and dealing with paperwork.

 

One more thing to remember, Sag actors don't have to work under Sag to be on your movie.

[Guest]

 

If you grew up in Canada, how British can you claim to be?

P

 

 

Equally British as you Phil. No different from a British kid whose dad is in the diplomatic service and gets moved around to various countries. I also lived in the USA and New Zealand for a long time, that didn't make me any less "Canadian." So why would not living in the UK right now make me any less British? I have the same UK passport you do my friend. :)

 

R,

[Guest]

The more true that is, the more reasonable it becomes to assume you're just lucky.

 

Oh really? Did Spielberg, Lucas, or James Cameron, come from "entertainment" families? Good grief Phil James Cameron is from Kapuskasing Ontario (do you know where that is?), kinda blows a hole in your theory doesn't it?

 

R,

[Guest]

 

No matter how hard the average UK citizen works, we know it is impossible to achieve reasonable goals without falling to the same level. That's why we're defeatist - we're defeated. We're as defeated as a man buried under a ten thousand ton rock slide.

 

Truly remarkable how many immigrants come to the UK, work endless hours running a corner shop, then buy another and another. Next thing you know, the guy has a huge house and inspects his shops in his new mercedes.

 

I'm juggling three projects right now, the hours are long sure, but that's what it takes to be successful I'm afraid.

 

R,

[Robin R Probyn]

 

Oh really? Did Spielberg, Lucas, or James Cameron, come from "entertainment" families? Good grief Phil James Cameron is from Kapuskasing Ontario (do you know where that is?), kinda blows a hole in your theory doesn't it?

 

R,

 

 

Yes no doubt skill and determination involved with the above.. but there must have been the lucky break.. there was one day when the stars alined for these guys .. there just has to have been.. and good for them.. but really when ever I have read up about some famous DP.. director.. or actor.. there has always been the lucky break moment ..

[Robin R Probyn]

 

Truly remarkable how many immigrants come to the UK, work endless hours running a corner shop, then buy another and another. Next thing you know, the guy has a huge house and inspects his shops in his new mercedes.

 

I'm juggling three projects right now, the hours are long sure, but that's what it takes to be successful I'm afraid.

 

R,

 

 

Unfortunately this is a Tory party Disney film concept .. you can be rich if only you work hard..and by implication unemployed if you are lazy.. its not reality in the UK.. or the US or Canada I would think..

[Phil Rhodes]

 

 

kinda blows a hole in your theory doesn't it?

 

...er. No, it doesn't. It reinforces my theory, very firmly.

 

This is why workers argue with the boss. The lord of the manor always appears to subscribe to a completely different model of logic and causality as everyone else.

 

P

[Guest]

Ok then Phil, if Spielberg, Lucas, and Cameron, didn't come from entertainment families how did they become so successful?

 

R,

[Phil Rhodes]

Ability, application and luck. What's your point?

 

P

[Guest]

Ability, application and luck. What's your point?

 

P

 

That you don't need to be born into this industry in order to succeed.

 

R,

[Landon D. Parks]

As a contractor getting a job done and hoping on the next show you get called back... why would you shoot yourself in the foot by being an butt and call-out the production company on bad business practices? Not only would you loose all that time and effort you put in, but you'd probably be blacklisted as well.

 

I mean when things go south, not in general. Disagreements can become heated, and if you have no intention of working for said filmmaker again, they might like to find any way they can screw you over in the process, just like you screwed them.

 

Not saying it's common, but you are taking a slight risk hiring 1099 for film crew and actors. Personally, I have seen enough lawsuits myself to know to follow the book.

 

Of course, I know that for many small producers this risk won't matter. Most are already throwing everything they have at the production, so there is little left to worry about getting sued for. However, someone serious about their financial affairs should try to stay on book.

 

Just my experience...

[Landon D. Parks]

ALL filmmaking is luck, just different degrees of it.

[Phil Rhodes]

 

 

That you don't need to be born into this industry in order to succeed.

 

Obviously.

 

What you do need is a lot of luck.

 

P

[Guest]

Certainly some people seem to have an easier path than others, that is true. Considering there is already a massive world wide glut of movies on the market, I can't imagine what would happen if every single person who wanted to make a feature film actually did.

 

R,