Can we talk about "The Crown"?

[Tyler Purcell]

MarVista are not a company renowned for the quality of their movies. They are generally shot in 12-15 days on very low budgets. With no time and no money, often the finer points of filmmaking go out the window. Also, you may be looking at trailer cut from ungraded dailies rather than the finished movie. Don't be too quick to judge any one aspect of this.

Yea, it's funny because the movie I posted is exactly the same stuff MarVista makes. The only difference is that as a producer, I gave two shits about what it was going to look like. Not saying every shot looks great, but it don't look bad. The neat thing was being able to "go to town" on the edit and color.

[Tyler Purcell]

NIGHT AND DAY! I loooooove the C300 Mark II. If only I had about 3k more...

Not even in the same ballpark. I'm not a fan of the "super white" look so synonymous with movies these days.

[Robin R Probyn]

It's not a "grade" it's a "temp" grade so you can watch the footage with SOME decency as you edit.

 

My workflow is that after the cut is done, all finishing is done in DaVinci, with a proper grade.

 

 

More like, I don't have the time to deal with power windows. It's a very very very time consuming process, sometimes taking hours to do one shot. Not saying this is a "problem" with any specific camera system, but it's just one part of the "ease of use" workflow that makes working with certain cameras a lot easier. Again.. this goes back to my comment about "getting it in camera" and how I strive for that because a lot of times, whoever you hand the footage over to, maybe not understand how to grade it properly, especially with commercial/industrial and documentary work, which is the vast majority of my work.

 

 

Earlier you said this.. direct quote

 

My #1 concern is always how good the image is without any messing around in post. I go out and shoot lots of messed up footage, color balance way off, under/over expose, different ISO/shutter combinations, etc.

 

Then you say this below .. its pretty hard to work out where you are making your mistakes with XAVCI /Sony f55.. why is your color balance way off..why are you under or over exposed..your ISO/shutter changing all over the place ..

 

this goes back to my comment about "getting it in camera" and how I strive for that because a lot of times, whoever you hand the footage over to, maybe not understand how to grade it properly,

Edited January 3, 2018 by Robin R Probyn

[Samuel Berger]

Not even in the same ballpark. I'm not a fan of the "super white" look so synonymous with movies these days.

 

Super white?

 

Anyway, 32 seconds in, her hat disappears into the sky. After all the researching, I know the C300 Mark II produces much better images than the FS7. It's just this trailer that is awkwardly graded.

[Tyler Purcell]

this goes back to my comment about "getting it in camera" and how I strive for that because a lot of times, whoever you hand the footage over to, maybe not understand how to grade it properly,

I don't shoot Rec709... so anyone who looks at the footage would need to understand how to apply a base LUT. A lot of people watch the footage and complain right away. I've even seen my footage in nearly finished products and they didn't even know they had to apply a LUT.

 

Imagine if they were getting F55 footage shooting CineEL or even Slog in some cases, there isn't a base lut that works in any software I've seen (Premiere, FCPX, Speedgrade and DaVinci). At least with ALL THE OTHER cameras; Red, Alexa, Canon, Blackmagic... the base luts in those software packages work fine.

 

It's a piece of cake to make your own LUT, but imagine some random colorist who has no connection to the project trying to grade that stuff. Sony's workflow is to apply the grade on the ingest using their proprietary software.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

I haven't got any complaints about the SLOG3 to REC907-LC in Resolve, personally.

[Tyler Purcell]

Super white?

The phenomena of always grading to perfect white.

[Tyler Purcell]

I haven't got any complaints about the SLOG3 to REC907-LC in Resolve, personally.

 

 

Doesn't work with the F5/F55... IDK WHY, but it doesn't.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

It's been a bit since I shot F55, but I don't recall it being problematic with me. Thought that may have been SLOG2 we did on that particular show as opposed ot SLOG3. I can think of a time I had an issue with the FS5 on the SLOG-3-LC where it didn't look "right," i forget what it was, but a few buttons latter on and we had a new LUT for that particular instance (an interview) we could apply to all our clips.

[Tyler Purcell]

It's been a bit since I shot F55, but I don't recall it being problematic with me. Thought that may have been SLOG2 we did on that particular show as opposed ot SLOG3. I can think of a time I had an issue with the FS5 on the SLOG-3-LC where it didn't look "right," i forget what it was, but a few buttons latter on and we had a new LUT for that particular instance (an interview) we could apply to all our clips.

 

Yea, I maybe wrong about the "version" of Slog my team wound up using. It wasn't the same one on the consumer cameras, that's for sure. May have been slog3... I do know we used Cine EL on one shoot and that had issues as well. The problem is the display LUT wasn't something we could recreate out of camera.

[Stuart Brereton]

 

 

Doesn't work with the F5/F55... IDK WHY, but it doesn't.

I use Sony LC709 with F55 all the time. Works perfectly.

 

 

Yea, I maybe wrong about the "version" of Slog my team wound up using. It wasn't the same one on the consumer cameras, that's for sure. May have been slog3... I do know we used Cine EL on one shoot and that had issues as well. The problem is the display LUT wasn't something we could recreate out of camera.

There are currently only two versions of Slog, Slog2 and Slog3. LC709 works with either of them. No problems. I have no idea what you mean by a 'display' LUT that you couldn't recreate out of camera. LC709 is built into the cameras, and into Resolve, as well as other edit software.

 

There is no such thing as Cine EL, only Cine EI, which is not a LUT, but a mode on the camera.

 

Every time you post about Sony cameras it becomes more and more evident that you don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about.

[Robin R Probyn]

I don't shoot Rec709... so anyone who looks at the footage would need to understand how to apply a base LUT. A lot of people watch the footage and complain right away. I've even seen my footage in nearly finished products and they didn't even know they had to apply a LUT.

 

Imagine if they were getting F55 footage shooting CineEL or even Slog in some cases, there isn't a base lut that works in any software I've seen (Premiere, FCPX, Speedgrade and DaVinci). At least with ALL THE OTHER cameras; Red, Alexa, Canon, Blackmagic... the base luts in those software packages work fine.

 

It's a piece of cake to make your own LUT, but imagine some random colorist who has no connection to the project trying to grade that stuff. Sony's workflow is to apply the grade on the ingest using their proprietary software.

 

Yes I wasn't referring to REC709.. if you WB is way out all the time,under exposing and changing your ISO/shutter with LOG you are creating a nightmare for the grader.. with any camera..if you are shooting EI (NOT EL as you always write)..you will be shooting Log ..no other setting..still I think you dont understand log shooting ..I can see why people complain right away....and the ISO is constant with F55... this would have been another problem had you been changing the ISO..learn the camera before use .. so you are doing all this stuff while shooting Log . on any camera thats trouble..again I have to say you.. patiently do not understand Log shooting..or Luts .. you would be better to shoot REC709 WYSIWYG.. Im shooting Slog all the time.. as are thousands of others..there are no problems from post..Sony LUTs are all available ..there is REC709 display LUT right there in the camera and a whole lot more.. it takes you hours to do power windows ?..sorry but its all user error ... you dont understand log or Luts.. your making a fool of yourself when you could just admit your wrong and learn stuff.. why..?

 

People are trying to help you.. but its sooooo frustrating .. its ok to be wrong.. thats how we learn..

Edited January 3, 2018 by Robin R Probyn

[David Hessel]

 

I do know we used Cine EL on one shoot and that had issues as well.

 

Cine EI didn't have issues it did what it was designed to do. You and your "Sony experts" had issues because none of you understood that Cine EI locks the ISO to the cameras base ISO for capture and any gain applied in camera is for in camera preview only to show how the image will look once the gain is re-applied in post.

[Tyler Purcell]

I use Sony LC709 with F55 all the time. Works perfectly.

Yea not for me. I have access to an F55, I'll shoot something and show you what I mean.

 

There is no such thing as Cine EL, only Cine EI, which is not a LUT, but a mode on the camera.

It still requires a "display LUT" to be displayed properly.

 

Every time you post about Sony cameras it becomes more and more evident that you don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about.

Funny enough, it's the only camera system I've needed to hire "experts" to make work properly and even they have failed to make it work. On the most recent shoot we just reverted back to using REC709 because I was so tired dealing with Sony bullshit. At least everything came out fine. Ohh and we even moved-over settings between cameras and found that one of them crashed thanks to some software incompatibilities. It was a friggen nightmare dealing with that, I must have spent an hour trying to make those settings work and couldn't. The FS7 (that particular shoot) is very glitchy.

 

I shouldn't "need" to know ANYTHING! lol

 

Again, with RED... I open the file in pretty much any program and BAM it looks great. With the Alexa, I open the file with pretty much every program, pop up a base LUT and BAM looks great. With the Canon and Blackmagic cameras, I've been mucking around with making my own LUTS because I can tweak even better.

 

Yet with the Sony cameras... I don't have the skills to make them work. When I shoot the monitors and viewfinder look great, the scopes are perfect, the settings are apparently right according to my hired expert... yet when I play the files back with ANY of the built-in LUT's, it always looks like poop. Hey, the client appears to be more than happy, they keep hiring me and using Sony cameras.

[Tyler Purcell]

Cine EI didn't have issues it did what it was designed to do. You and your "Sony experts" had issues because none of you understood that Cine EI locks the ISO to the cameras base ISO for capture and any gain applied in camera is for in camera preview only to show how the image will look once the gain is re-applied in post.

Yea I understand how it works, they knew too. We used Sony EI on one shoot and it was a nightmare, would never do that again. I lit and exposed for the base ISO because that's what I wanted to try... so much for that idea.

[Justin Hayward]

it always looks like poop. Hey, the client appears to be more than happy, .

I hope they dont read this forum! ?

[David Hessel]

Yea I understand how it works, they knew too. We used Sony EI on one shoot and it was a nightmare, would never do that again. I lit and exposed for the base ISO because that's what I wanted to try... so much for that idea.

 

You all knew, really? You do realize threre is a thread on this forum that shows otherwise.

http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=73965&page=9&do=findComment&comment=482035

[Stuart Brereton]

It still requires a "display LUT" to be displayed properly.

 

A display LUT which is built into the camera, and which comes free with Resolve.

 

I shouldn't "need" to know ANYTHING! lol

 

 

And this hugely egotistical attitude is the root cause of all your problems. The 'educator' who refuses to learn.

 

Every single issue that you've had comes down to the fact that neither you, nor your so-called experts, had the first idea what any of you were doing. You were too lazy, or too arrogant, to do your due diligence, and you screwed up, but you don't want to admit it, so instead you endlessly blame a camera system that thousands of other people use every day without problems.

 

If you want people here to take your posts seriously, you might want to try a small dose of humility, and own up to your mistakes.

 

If, when you first had problems, you had posted here asking for help and advice, you would have found plenty of people familiar with Sonys who would have pointed you in the right direction, and helped you set up the cameras properly (which frankly, is very easy to do, if you bother to learn). Instead, you chose to go on a hugely ill-informed rant blaming everyone but yourself, and making all kinds of ridiculous statements about Sony cameras, all of which have been proven to be either misleading or outright falsehoods.

 

If you don't like Sonys, fine. don't use them. But, please STOP making these completely unsubstantiated, misleading comments about them. You are ONLY person who seems to have these problems.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

If, when you first had problems, you had posted here asking for help and advice, you would have found plenty of people familiar with Sonys who would have pointed you in the right direction, and helped you set up the cameras properly (which frankly, is very easy to do, if you bother to learn).

 

I dunno those Sony Menus though lol.

[Robin R Probyn]

I dunno those Sony Menus though lol.

 

 

I know your joking.. but for anyone using one soon.. the f5/55 since V8 I think .. has a quick menu that comes up in the side LCD.. it has all the main functions.. press the option button.. then move around off the 6 hot buttons.. very easy.. you can also set the whole menu to come up in the side LCD.. the Pana Varicam puts the Sony menus to shame.. very complicated .. if your going to use that camera check it out a few days before.. or have an "expert" on hand

[Adrian Sierkowski]

Oh it's not so much to the on the day changes, for me it was the figuring out why the camera was soo weirdly set up and spending an hour looking for the one setting to enable to stupid menu to put it in SLOG mode. The camera came painted to high heavens with lovely pink skin-tones and greenish skies for some reason.

[David Mullen ASC]

I haven't shot with the Sony F55 yet but talking to cinematographers over the years about it, they all seem to figure out how to use it just fine, some have done multiple seasons of television with that camera, shooting hundreds of hours of footage.

 

But I do think there is room for improvement because many cinematographers seem to find the need to light the camera to a lower ISO than the one being recording in S-Log for some odd reason, like set their meters to 1000 or 800 ISO when the camera is set to 1250 ISO. I don't know if they are using a waveform on the Rec.709 signal and feel it looks "low" when exposing at 1250 ISO, which suggests that Sony's internal conversion to Rec.709 for viewing needs to be tweaked, but if they are using the waveform to look at the S-Log signal and think it looks "low" then perhaps they just disagree with what Sony thinks where values should be placed in a log curve.

 

Whereas when shooting on an Alexa, setting your meter to 800 ISO and the camera to 800 ISO seem to line up just fine when using a waveform to look at the Rec.709 monitor output.

 

But either way, it seems to me that this is a minor problem that can easily be resolved with the Sony in the camera prep.

 

As for color, any log recording needs to be color-corrected so any "bias" is usually easily corrected out.

[Robin R Probyn]

Oh it's not so much to the on the day changes, for me it was the figuring out why the camera was soo weirdly set up and spending an hour looking for the one setting to enable to stupid menu to put it in SLOG mode. The camera came painted to high heavens with lovely pink skin-tones and greenish skies for some reason.

 

 

Thats pretty easy TBH...1 Menu. 2 System ..3 Base setting.. 4 Custom or EI. EI Brings up Slog2 or 3 with the relevant color gamuts.. 3 button pushes..and your there.. of course its harder when your under the gun and a dir looming over your shoulder..it has its quirks but Sony menus aren't really difficult.. there is some logic too them.. they are just long .. as the camera can do alot of things.. but Slog is very simple as all the matrix/paint/ WB ,, etc menus are greyed out on purpose.. its actually alot like shooting film... constant ISO and 3 color balances ..REC 709 built in EVF LUT.. press REC..

[Adrian Sierkowski]

Wasn't so much under the gun; just in nowhere in a hotel room prepping for the next morning. The fact it was in System and not in the other areas was what threw me for a long time (a whole beer's time!)

Got it eventually but when nowhere with no wifi to look it up and no prep, yeah wasn't great but certainly dind't put me off the system.

[Robin R Probyn]

I haven't shot with the Sony F55 yet but talking to cinematographers over the years about it, they all seem to figure out how to use it just fine, some have done multiple seasons of television with that camera, shooting hundreds of hours of footage.

 

But I do think there is room for improvement because many cinematographers seem to find the need to light the camera to a lower ISO than the one being recording in S-Log for some odd reason, like set their meters to 1000 or 800 ISO when the camera is set to 1250 ISO. I don't know if they are using a waveform on the Rec.709 signal and feel it looks "low" when exposing at 1250 ISO, which suggests that Sony's internal conversion to Rec.709 for viewing needs to be tweaked, but if they are using the waveform to look at the S-Log signal and think it looks "low" then perhaps they just disagree with what Sony thinks where values should be placed in a log curve.

 

Whereas when shooting on an Alexa, setting your meter to 800 ISO and the camera to 800 ISO seem to line up just fine when using a waveform to look at the Rec.709 monitor output.

 

But either way, it seems to me that this is a minor problem that can easily be resolved with the Sony in the camera prep.

 

As for color, any log recording needs to be color-corrected so any "bias" is usually easily corrected out.

 

The use of a lower ISO for the f55 and the f5.. AFAIK from using it and all the forums, is not to do with the REC709 MLUT .. but purely for better NR .. there are many who feel the "real" ISO of the f55 is not 1250 but more like the Arri at 800 ISO.. although there are more who just go with the native ISO.. personally I usually go with the native ISO .. its just a personal preference really.. The BBC nat history unit told us to shoot native ISO..on the F55..