Anyone try the Lasergraphics Archivist scanner?

[Andrew Wise]

What does the archival/shrunk film gate on the scanstation/archivist look like? And any feedback on how it performs? 

[Robert Houllahan]

On 9/4/2023 at 3:23 AM, Andrew Wise said:

What does the archival/shrunk film gate on the scanstation/archivist look like? And any feedback on how it performs? 

I think it has a metal plate system that "holds down" the film and makes it run flatter through the gate.

This probably really depends allot on the tolerance for being flattened by the presumably very shrunken film being scanned.

[Perry Paolantonio]

On 9/4/2023 at 3:23 AM, Andrew Wise said:

What does the archival/shrunk film gate on the scanstation/archivist look like? And any feedback on how it performs? 

It is a hinged, spring-loaded pressure plate that closed down around the film. Additionally there are some rollers you replace on the machine that don't have the V-tracks like the standard rollers. These flatten the film a bit as it goes through the gate.  

[Tyler Purcell]

On 9/4/2023 at 12:23 AM, Andrew Wise said:

What does the archival/shrunk film gate on the scanstation/archivist look like? And any feedback on how it performs? 

[Jeff Bernstein]

What an awesome thread. In the video "Got Memories Customer Testimonial Viewing 16mm Film from 1930’s being digitized", the technician at one point remarks : “God knows what this is [footage from 1936].”

 

Is it : Dinosaur Park, Rapid City, South Dakota, opened May 1936?

[John Rizzo]

The archival gates preform well on warpped film, however if te film is at the point where it is very brittle the film will just break.

another option lasergraphics offers is adjustable tension on the feed and holdback drives this oprion come in very handy for film that is starting to get brittle and warped. 

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 2/28/2022 at 8:19 PM, Dan Baxter said:

The Retroscan isn't the "only" choice. There's the 8mm Filmfabrieks (the Pictors), and you can still get refurbished Tobins.

If you don't want to scan for others/payment then you're self-limiting your budget. A mate of mine would not have been able to buy his Lasergraphics had he not started with something a lot more modest. There are plenty of companies out there charging people to transfer their home movies using Tobins and Retroscans, you could easily find a market there if you wanted it. A few paid jobs a month and you'd be on your way to buying something better.

I don't know what you're expecting, but you can't expect to get a higher calibre of client with the Retroscan Universal Mark 1, it's a rough machine known to damage film. That's not to be judgemental of you or anyone else that owns one just pointing out you will not get commercial clients or archive work with a machine like that even if all they want is to "just see what's on the film" and they're not concerned with quality.

 

Yes, Retroscan pretty much is the only choice for 16mm on a low budget. 8mm is generally crap to deal with. With amateurs, they generally progress to 16mm after a little time...if they are serious So, when you acquire a 'pig in a poke' 16mm you have a better chance of getting something useable as opposed to 8mm.

Sure, there is no guarantee, there is plenty of 16mm garbage. But you have to give it your best shot when buying blind film from pickers. Even so, 8mm is just crappy compared to 16mm in image resolution. Another sign of something may be good is when the home movies are spiced up on 400 or 800 foot reels. Shows some sophistication over a 50-foot 8mm or 16mm reel. 

No, I'd never scan for $ and work on crap I don't like. Film is just one of the hundreds of areas I work in, although it is probably the biggest area of interest for me. I don't want a job as a film scanner...I just want to get scans of my films. Just as I don't want a job binding books, running a copy stand or doing post processing. I just do it because I have to. Now, when health was better, I liked pounding the pavement to do documentary photography. But that was about it for things I'd liked to do for $.

I got into film scanning because of cost and the fact that the commercial scanners won't scan some of my films due to censorship / legal issues. So, it was a combination of reasons. Even if rich, and I could pay $1 a foot for good quality timed scans, I'd still have to get a scanner to scan the films the commercial scanners won't touch. 

Now if someone wanted to pay me to run the Peoples' Archive, sure I'd take the money. Money is stored energy, got nothing against it, it is good to have lots of energy. But $ wouldn't change the areas I work in. If they wanted to force me to work in areas, I didn't like...I'd say no. I got too much of my own work to do and I only work in areas that are interesting as hell to me. 

In the past I have offered to scan film for people for free...if they share the scans. But no one ever does. So, I tell them...go pay someone then. And from what I can tell, it is not about offering them 2K or 4K scans. They just except me to work for free and get nothing in return...be it 2k or 4K.

Never found the Retroscan to damage my films. What is your claim on damage? Do you have any before and after photos?

I've only scanned maybe 125 films with it. No use scanning thousands of films with it, only to scan them all again with 4K, which is my goal. Now, you hear a lot of crinkle noises when running really bad warped film though the Retroscan. Maybe if you keep running the same badly warped film through it, the film may crack.

The Retroscan was good to more or less to get my feet wet with cine' film scanning. I've done hundreds of thousands of scans with flatbed and sheet fed scanners. So, I know my way around them pretty well. But flatbed scanning is not cine' film scanning, just as still photography is not the same as shooting cine' film.

 

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 9/7/2023 at 3:26 PM, John Rizzo said:

The archival gates preform well on warpped film, however if te film is at the point where it is very brittle the film will just break.

another option lasergraphics offers is adjustable tension on the feed and holdback drives this oprion come in very handy for film that is starting to get brittle and warped. 

 

Adjustable tension sounds good! Any drawbacks to lower tension scans?

I've found you get some breakage with film in poor condition. Just part of the deal with decomposed film. I just spice it together again. Old or poorly done glue splices can give way. It is not the end of the world...unless the film keeps breaking every few inches or feet.

It would be interesting to see what the archivists do with film that can't be scanned due to condition. I had a reel or two of that type of film. I was planning on using a copy stand to take individual photos of each frame held in a film carrier for an enlarger. But it is terribly time consuming. I will probably settle on taking sample photos every few feet to give a taste of the film in stills. 

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 9/6/2023 at 2:41 PM, Jeff Bernstein said:

What an awesome thread. In the video "Got Memories Customer Testimonial Viewing 16mm Film from 1930’s being digitized", the technician at one point remarks : “God knows what this is [footage from 1936].”

 

 

 

Is it : Dinosaur Park, Rapid City, South Dakota, opened May 1936?

 

 

Yes, that is what it is like. Every day is like Christmas when you dive into film...generally speaking. Although some days it is just heartbreak when you find your lot of 37 pig in a poke films are all crap. Some film collectors lump all their junk together and sell it on eBay as 'unviewed / unknown content.' Same with pig in a poke reel to reel audio purchases.

Rapid City?

That's one of the hundreds of areas I collect in, plus other dinosaur roadside attractions across America.

https://archive.org/download/DinosaurHuntersD.D.TeoliJr.A.C.1/Dinosaur Hunters D.D. Teoli Jr. A.C. (10).jpg

https://archive.org/download/DinosaurHuntersD.D.TeoliJr.A.C.1/Dinosaur Hunters D.D. Teoli Jr. A.C. (12).jpg

 

 

 

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 9/6/2023 at 2:15 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

 

Nice!  Did you find anything that could be improved on it Tyler?

Thanks 

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 9/5/2023 at 11:28 PM, Robert Houllahan said:

I think it has a metal plate system that "holds down" the film and makes it run flatter through the gate.

This probably really depends allot on the tolerance for being flattened by the presumably very shrunken film being scanned.

 

So, what scanner / setup do you use for heavily warped film Robert and Perry?

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 8/21/2023 at 2:45 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

I work with scans from 6.5k Scan Stations all the time, HDR and SDR, it's amazing how good they are. 

I've found if we scan a certain way on the HDS+ 4k, we can get excellent dynamic range in the blacks, which is all you're really getting out of the HDR pass anyway. The Sony imager is really good, it has excellent DR in the blacks, which of course means the highlights when you invert the image. 

If I had the space, the work AND the money, I would 100% own a Scan Station. Honestly, we had some serious talks with them recently and they were very accommodating. I almost bought a used one recently for not much money and I was going to have them update the imager. But alas, we keep on getting bogged down by limited space. It's a big problem when you also do so many other things. We have one workspace for camera repair only, one workplace for soldering/board work, which we also use as our assembly table for manufacturing. We have two desks for computer workstations for editorial/restoration. Then we have the scanner, which has it's own entire bench for the machine itself, clean box (we have a pressurized vessel the scanner goes in), all the parts and accessories. We've got a huge 3D printer workspace as well, which soon will have a 2nd machine just for production. We even have a film re-work table with splicers, rewinds and a viewer. Imagine all of that in your home, plus a 10x10 storage unit internal which is FULL of production equipment. It's kinda unsustainable, but it's inexpensive for Los Angeles. Ya learn over time living here, that finding a diamond in the rough is not easy and when you do, ya gotta keep it. So even though our space is jam packed, it's livable. The Scan Station would be an impossibility as it's profile is 2x larger than our current scanner. So hopefully the new HDS replacement, whatever it's called, will be a marketable improvement and we'll just have to "upgrade" with them. 

That is something! You work I like I do or I work like you do...whatever! Space, $ and time are always an issue. Although with $ you can buy space and time. 

What is a pressurized vessel? Send in photos.

What do you use 3D printing for?

I don't care how you slice it, living in L.A. is $$. 

What is the scoop on the new FilmFabriek model? Will it do sound?

 

 

 

 

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 1/28/2023 at 11:01 PM, Robert Houllahan said:

I think it depends on the level of service but in general a full service contract for a machine is about 10% of the purchase price annually.

I am happy with the duo of LaserGraphics machines we have at Cinelab now that the "personal" has 2-flash HDR. The Archivist's newer Sony sensor 5.4K camera is very low noise and makes excellent scans.

Thanks Robert. Do you find it is worthwhile for you to still maintain your service contract? I mean, after a while don't you know the score with the machine?

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 2/1/2023 at 7:21 AM, wally stall said:

I am striving to aquire a Lasergraphics archivist scanner. I have gotten a quote with all the features I need is at $70,000. I at this time have a MARK II and ordered the 4k upgrade kit. I love the MARK II but the work flow is slow. The Lasergraphics archivist scanner will speed up the work flow and the overall resolution and definition will surpass the MARK II. Not too mention the rock solid scans.

I'm not worried about a wet gate system. The Filmfabriek HDR + is touted as the best quality scanner on the market. But that may or may not be true. I know the industry all points to the Lasergraphics as a starting bench mark.  The Lasergraphics line of scanners are a step above the filmfabriek scanner. But I have seen some fabulous scans from the filmfabriek scanner. But for me in 18 to 24 months I'm purchasing the Lasergraphics archivist scanner. 

 

Thanks for the rundown. The FF sales rep is just a few states over from me. I was going to drive there to see the HDS in operation. But he told me he loaned it to someone and they won't give it back. That was some time ago and lost interest in it after Tyler gave his rundown on the HDS. 

From what I can tell, the HDS seems to be more of a $20k scanner to me...but am no expert.

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 2/1/2023 at 7:21 AM, wally stall said:

I am striving to aquire a Lasergraphics archivist scanner. I have gotten a quote with all the features I need is at $70,000. I at this time have a MARK II and ordered the 4k upgrade kit. I love the MARK II but the work flow is slow. The Lasergraphics archivist scanner will speed up the work flow and the overall resolution and definition will surpass the MARK II. Not too mention the rock solid scans.

I'm not worried about a wet gate system. The Filmfabriek HDR + is touted as the best quality scanner on the market. But that may or may not be true. I know the industry all points to the Lasergraphics as a starting bench mark.  The Lasergraphics line of scanners are a step above the filmfabriek scanner. But I have seen some fabulous scans from the filmfabriek scanner. But for me in 18 to 24 months I'm purchasing the Lasergraphics archivist scanner. 

 

What options are you getting in on your scanner? I had heard they are $50K. 

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 8/6/2023 at 11:20 AM, Todd Ruel said:

After starting out 6 years ago with a Moviestuff Mark I and then buying a Filmfabriek HDS+ 3 years ago, I'm now buying an Archivist.  I plunked down the deposit last week with Galileo Digital.

As someone who has seen the latest, greatest, up-to-date-ist price sheet, I can verify that Lasergraphics is definitely offering HDR scanning on the Archivist as a software option.  And I'm getting it.

I have learned the hard way that my previous scanner purchases required a lot of post-production work to make the scans acceptable.  I had to buy Diamant to stabilize them, because the Mark I did not do that.  I had to use AEO Light (which is a real godsend to those who have no other way to extract audio) to synchronize a usable soundtrack.  And it still takes a lot of time to grade them in Resolve and dustbust them in Diamant to get films "ready for market".  (In my case, that means uploading select clips to Getty Images for licensing.)

The one thing I told Brett Maynard of Galileo Digital is that Lasergraphics really needs a social media presence so that they can directly address a lot of the issues that folks debate back and forth on this forum.  I think they really need to do this to dispel a lot of the rumors and conjecture that I read about here and in other forums.

 

Tired to upvote, but forum blocks me and says I did too much upvoting today...too bad. 

You should do a blog like Perry did when setting up his scan lab back in the day. Blow by blow sort of thing. From ordering machine to set up, running, etc.

Helps promote you and your work as well as add to the base of information on scanners out there. 

Yes, these scan companies are generally terrible with communication. The FF sales rep for the HDS is OK.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 8/6/2023 at 11:47 PM, Dan Baxter said:

Congrats! I hope it works out well for you once you get it.

Of course they are, they let the cat out of the bag already and existing ones have it. Just be aware the software defaults to OFF anyway!

LaserGraphic's software audio extraction is really good. And if I'm not mistaken they recently made some improvements to it as well, so if you have the latest host software from LG you have the best available. You can still use AEO light though if you need to. Another huge advantage for the Archivist is that you can purchase the magnetic sound heads. They were not available with the ScanStation Personals but they are with the Archivist.

Their issue in my opinion is that they haven't made it easy for small companies doing niche things to get the information that's right for them and then make a plan to purchase the scanners. EG home movie scanning companies. Most of them are too afraid to invest in the cost of a ScanStation or an Archivist or the FilmFabriek HDS+. As for the information, so far as I know Stefan himself is in charge of what's claimed on the official LaserGraphics website and that website could be a lot clearer about the capabilities and limitations of the scanners.

 

''LaserGraphic's software audio extraction is really good.'' 

 

Huh??

I recall you had an argument a while back with Perry claiming Lasergraphics had poor audio?? Why the change in heart?

 

 

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 8/9/2023 at 1:12 AM, Tyler Purcell said:

They have a whole new scanner out hopefully at NAB next year. 

It'll be pretty kickass actually. Been talking with them for a while about it and they've learned a lot. 

So when it's available, we'll see if we can get one to help market a bit. 

Honestly, I will never be able to afford a Scan Station, and honestly with all the mods we've done to our FF, it's really not bad. 

 

Thats' too bad about the finances with purchasing a Lasergraphics. Always keep up with the hopium. Does not cost much and life can turn on a dime. (Just don't get too drugged up on it!)

Maybe more used models will come to market. I'm surprised more have not already. Have you seen many used LG scanners in L.A.? I've only seen 2 on eBay.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

[Daniel D. Teoli Jr.]

On 8/11/2023 at 5:05 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

That's crazy, but it makes sense. Just run it through a machine that is real time sending it to DVD. It's the lowest cost, but in no way is it "restoring" the film at all. 

 

I don't do much restoring other than contrast / color grading. The film is what it is.

If you look at the 6-part series from 'Treasures from American Film Archives,' professional archivists don't do much restoring. My interest is in getting sharp, steady scans and the audio.

Here are 2 of the 6 sets...

National Film Preservation Foundation: Treasures from American Film Archives

National Film Preservation Foundation: More Treasures from American Film Archives

 

Some things are worn from age. Just what it is. 

 

 

Now, if you are marketing a BD-R of a classic film, then go ahead and restore it to make it sell better. I got nothing against restored feature films. But with some of these small gauge films in bad condition...you can only polish a turd so much.

 

 

[Dan Baxter]

On 9/12/2023 at 12:15 AM, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

Yes, Retroscan pretty much is the only choice for 16mm on a low budget. 8mm is generally crap to deal with. With amateurs, they generally progress to 16mm after a little time...if they are serious So, when you acquire a 'pig in a poke' 16mm you have a better chance of getting something useable as opposed to 8mm.

It really isn't, and for the quality it produces you may as well buy a refurbished Tobin.

On 9/12/2023 at 12:15 AM, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

No, I'd never scan for $ and work on crap I don't like. Film is just one of the hundreds of areas I work in, although it is probably the biggest area of interest for me. I don't want a job as a film scanner...I just want to get scans of my films. Just as I don't want a job binding books, running a copy stand or doing post processing. I just do it because I have to. Now, when health was better, I liked pounding the pavement to do documentary photography. But that was about it for things I'd liked to do for $.

Yes you keep saying this. I don't know what to to tell you - a $60,000 Archivist isn't going to fall into your lap without an ability to monetise its work.

On 9/12/2023 at 1:11 AM, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

''LaserGraphic's software audio extraction is really good.'' 

Huh??

I recall you had an argument a while back with Perry claiming Lasergraphics had poor audio?? Why the change in heart?

ScanStations have two ways of digitising optical audio as explained on the website. There's the hardware/keykode reader but it's hissy and doesn't do a very good job really, but they also have software audio extraction and it's excellent and better quality than AEO light. LG recently added an option to manually select where the audio is captured from, refer to this image, I'm pretty sure that was only added recently and that before it was the user had no control over it. You can of course just also use AEO light, but again LG's software does a better job so there's really no need unless you scanned it silent or you used the wrong audio settings in the scan or something like that.

You can also hook-up interlocking mag audio to scanners, you get your dubber and put the soundtrack on it and then get your scanner and plug dubber into the scanner and away you go and you get synced audio.

By the way the HDR option is now listed again on the official LG website for the Archivist along with the misleading comparisons to Arri and to Scanity.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Dan Baxter

[Dan Baxter]

On 9/7/2023 at 4:41 AM, Jeff Bernstein said:

What an awesome thread. In the video "Got Memories Customer Testimonial Viewing 16mm Film from 1930’s being digitized", the technician at one point remarks : “God knows what this is [footage from 1936].”

The ironic thing about that is that the customer was having videotapes transferred I think, not film. So he probably doesn't know anything at all about how film should look and would be easily impressed by seeing anything that transferred it in realtime.

[Andrew Wise]

On 9/7/2023 at 12:00 AM, Perry Paolantonio said:

It is a hinged, spring-loaded pressure plate that closed down around the film. Additionally there are some rollers you replace on the machine that don't have the V-tracks like the standard rollers. These flatten the film a bit as it goes through the gate.  

As for the standard gate, is it flat also? or does it have a slight curve in it to keep the film running on the edges?

[Perry Paolantonio]

12 hours ago, Dan Baxter said:

here's the hardware/keykode reader but it's hissy and doesn't do a very good job really,

This is objectively false. Seriously, why do you keep posting this? 

 

Quote

You can also hook-up interlocking mag audio to scanners, you get your dubber and put the soundtrack on it and then get your scanner and plug dubber into the scanner and away you go and you get synced audio.

What scanner does this? Telecines did this, but there hasn't been a need for it for years. Any late model dubber uses stepper motor control and runs at a fixed speed. xtal clocks govern the speed, so if you scan to a 24fps file and capture your mag at 24fps, they will sync perfectly. There will be no drift unless there's a problem with the machines, and no interlock is required.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Perry Paolantonio

[Perry Paolantonio]

5 hours ago, Andrew Wise said:

As for the standard gate, is it flat also? or does it have a slight curve in it to keep the film running on the edges?

The standard gate looks just like the photo above, minus the hinged pressure plate cover. The left and right sides of the gate assembly are curved but the film sits flat in the gate itself. 

[Dan Baxter]

7 hours ago, Perry Paolantonio said:

This is objectively false. Seriously, why do you keep posting this?

We can agree to disagree instead of you always fighting over everything. You think it's perfect, and I think it isn't and it's hissy - end of story. I seem to remember you saying that ScanStations don't have software audio extraction - they definitely do and they recently added that "SoundView" feature to select the tracks precisely.

7 hours ago, Perry Paolantonio said:

What scanner does this? Telecines did this, but there hasn't been a need for it for years. Any late model dubber uses stepper motor control and runs at a fixed speed. xtal clocks govern the speed, so if you scan to a 24fps file and capture your mag at 24fps, they will sync perfectly. There will be no drift unless there's a problem with the machines, and no interlock is required.

You can plug a dubber into a Blackmagic Cintel - are you not able to do it with a LaserGraphics as well? You're probably right that it doesn't matter much.