Kodak

John Holland · November 18, 2023

I know it cost lots to produce a new film stock . But I do think its about time Kodak did that !! A faster stock 800/1000 iso , a touch of grain would be nice ! Any thoughts ?

Simon Wyss · November 18, 2023

At the risk of repeating myself I’d suggest, if I found an ear with Kodak, to make little sensitive panchromatic fine-grain stocks, a negative and a reversal one, for all small-gauge cine formats. ISO 12 to 20 or 25, colourless triacetate, an antihalo undercoat. It could mean to revive the entire basic small-gauge market the way it had grown up since a hundred years ago. There have been beautiful films made by Du Pont, Agfa, Ansco, and Eastman-Kodak to stick to America. I think the colour film market is well furnished although an ISO 40 Ektachrome could be very interesting.

Fabian Schreyer · November 18, 2023

I often wonder if Kodak still has a research department that would be able to come up with new or improved film stocks. Will we ever see Kodak Vision4?

Giray Izcan · November 18, 2023

They couldn't justify the expense of making a new line of film due to lack of enough film originated productions. Sure there is a resurgence with film use but it is still peanuts compared to pre-digital days when everything was shot on film except for some TV and low budget mini dv productions. I think we are lucky to have the V3 to be honest.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Giray Izcan

Robin Phillips · November 18, 2023

31 minutes ago, Giray Izcan said:

They couldn't justify the expense of making a new line of film due to lack of enough film originated productions. Sure there is a resurgence with film use but it is still peanuts compared to pre-digital days when everything was shot on film except for some TV and low budget mini dv productions. I think we are lucky to have the V3 to be honest.

its not just that, its that they would likely have to discontinue vision 3 for the economics to work out, and changing from vision 3 to something new may be something customers would not be willing to risk. plus theres a lot of scattered reports that their attempt at a "vision 4" 1000 speed film basically just looked like 5219 pushed a stop, and thus what was the point

Giray Izcan · November 18, 2023

I mean sure it would be nice to have a 1000 ASA - not to mention, film would be more competitive with digital in terms of low light capabilities -but there is not enough productions shooting on it to justify the expense involved with R&D etc.

Robin Phillips · November 18, 2023

well thats the thing, they did the R&D and what they came up with basically looked like 5219 pushed a stop, which is 1000 ASA. we dont know if they could have found a new way to make faster yet smaller grains with more time and money, but I dont think it was worth it.

You could argue that the only place a small grained 1000 ASA film would really be a major improvement is on s16, since on 35 you can kinda get away with pushing it without much issue. Even on s16 if you are smart about your grain reduction you can kinda get away with a one stop push rated at 800. But with the ease of these high quality portable LED lights these days, along with the absolutely absurd ISO ratings of some digital cameras now, its hard to see how it would have made any sense for kodak to try to compete.

Now dont get me wrong, if kodak put out a 1000 asa film with '19's grain size I'd jump on shooting that. But honestly without a cost reduction at the same time I kinda doubt it would sway a lot of folks. And it doesnt strike me that price reductions are remotely on the horizon.

David Mullen ASC · November 18, 2023

It was the generation or two before Vision-3 5219 500T where Kodak felt pushed one-stop, it was better than their 800T, which they obsoleted. But in theory today, a Vision-3 1000T would have slightly better dynamic range than 500T pushed a stop because of the increase in contrast.

Charles MacDonald · November 19, 2023

the time when Kodak was in an "Arms Race" with FujiFilm was when we saw the Vision Line quickly go to vision 2 and then Vision 3. Fuji backed away, and without the demand and competition, there is little incentive to re-work into a vision 4. Perhaps if Christopher Nolan were to get a contract to produce a series of 12 movies all on IMAX, that required some very high speed film, there MIGHT be an incentive to do some R&D.

But as a strictly amateur photographer, I would LOVE to see someone make a 40ASA reversal film in both B&W and colour. Their are SO MANY nice super 8 cameras that will only work in their native mode with 40T film.

Fabian Schreyer · November 19, 2023

I still wonder if they even would be able to 'do some R&D'. I mean, when Vision3 was ready for release, the R&D team might have had a pretty good idea about what comes next. Probably they were already doing experiments and had several promising long-term research projects that all together could lead to a new level of film quality. But I guess most, if not all of these people are long gone. Either they were laid off during difficult times or they simply hit retirement age. As bad as it sounds: The knowledge might simply no longer exist.

Chris Burke · November 19, 2023

Does anyone really think that the Vision 3 stocks are lacking in any way? I think that they cover the bases pretty well. Maybe Kodak thinks the same thing. I agree with the desire for a stock with more contrast than the current line up. Not a faster stock, but a different "looking" 500T. They have done it before.

Tyler Purcell · November 19, 2023

Kodak did make a vision 4 stock, it was either 800 or 1000 ISO (not sure as it was tested at a wide range of ISO's) and when they determined it not to be any better than 19' pushed a stop, they basically bailed on the project and the lead person who developed vision from the very inception, left Kodak, along with "nearly" all of the motion picture division upper management.

Kodak has been actively changing the formula for the last few years, not necessarily for quality purposes, but perhaps vendors not making certain chemicals anymore. Needless to say, I doubt we will see any new color negative stock, ever.

ORWO is not a competitor and never will be.

Fuji is out of the business entirely and has been since 2012.

All the other "up and comers" are reversal stocks and will never touch the motion picture market.

So Kodak can be complacent. They can sit on their laurels and continue status quo forever.

The fact they brought back Ektachrome, was an unexpected leap, even for them. However, the reversal market, is kinda of different than the negative market. So I think they felt it was worth having another option and processing 100D as negative, does lead to some pretty cool results that don't look like negative. It's clear, Kodak was testing cross processing when they developed the stock and realized that's how professionals would use it.

I have a hunch, Kodak will make a single specialized stock next, doubtful it will have anything to do with vision. It'll take a Christopher Nolan, who now wants to make James Bond films, to create a 1960's looking stock, for Kodak to start developing something new. I have a feeling with how powerful he's become in the world of motion picture, that they're already working on something new, but it's super hush hush. There are A LOT of hush hush things happening in the world of film right now, so we'll see!

I know one thing tho... Kodak is going to do another price hike in 2024. So if you wanna buy film, do so before Jan 1st. They usually don't go up on the new year, but from what I've been warned, it's gonna shortly there after.

Karim D. Ghantous · November 20, 2023

Tyler, that sounds cool (the bit about the James Bond films). I asked Kodak to make a multi-layer b&w film, which could have a DR of over 20 stops, but who knows if they listened?

Edited November 20, 2023 by Karim D. Ghantous