Faux Sync Sound 16mm

[Kirk Anderson]

So, heres my idea....

 

I have:

1)a 16mm bolex

2) two Krasnogorsk 3s. One Bayo and one M42

*** all three are windup.***

 

Then I have:

1) Marantz PMD 201 Tape Recorder

2) Shure SM 58

3)Shure SM57

4)Cables to hook them up to my Marantz Tape deck.

 

If I had a Mic on a boom above a table scene and had my Camera wrapped in an old Parka/Makeshift Barney/Vacum box...lol

 

then Used a Clap board in the shot and recorded the snap and filmed the 30 seconds dialouge that it possible on my windups.

 

then telecined my roll and brought it into final cut along with the Audio track off My Marantz.....

 

Is there any chance that the dialogue and the film would be able to match well enough to be a "Faux sync sound Film"????

 

Has anyone attempted anything like this? or has any experience?

 

The Bolex and one of the K3's is actually remarkably quiet and I was thinking I could mix out any other camera noise.

 

I know it would take some balls and a crap load of luck to pull off, but someone has had to try to do this before me.

 

any ideas?

[Tim Carroll]

Robert Rodriguez did something similar when he made El Mariachi. It can be done, though it is a real pain in the backside to sync the audio in post.

 

The two issues you will have, besides the camera noise, is that your Bolex and your K3 are not running crystal sync, and your tape recorder is not running crystal sync. So basically you are going to be syncing individual words almost, because even if you get your clap board synced at the beginning of the take in FCP, the film footage was not shot at a constant speed, and the audio was not recorded at a constant speed, so you may get drift all over the map.

 

But hey, if you got alot of time on your hands for post, give it a shot.

 

-Tim

[Michael Ryan]

Hello Kircules,

 

You are correct about someone trying this already. Actually it's been done by tons of people mainly in Super 8 filmmaking.

 

First off, you should pick up the currect issue of SUPER 8 TODAY magazine (which can be bought at www.super8today.com). It has an interview with the co-director of the Super8 feature film SLEEP ALWAYS. Rick Palidwor explains in lots of detail how they sync'ed up the sound with a very similar idea.

 

It can be done, it's a bit of a pain, but certainly not impossible.

 

Mike

[David Sweetman]

Yeah, I did this last year. I recorded the image on 16mm with my Arri 16bl and rolled the audio to MiniDV on a GL2. The problem I had was that the audio didn't follow the video pulldown, and left me with something like 10 extra seconds of audio for every 100 minutes of video. ( i didn't have 100 minutes, but that was the ratio)

 

It's very possible to sync it yourself. It takes some messing around, but you can get it done. I might have to resort to this method for the film I'm shooting in July, if for some reason I can't get my old high school's DAT recorder.

 

Plus here's the other thing - it shaves a chunk of change off the telecine because it's cheaper to transfer MOS. So test it, and if you can pull it off without noticable flaw, and you're happy with it, and you want to put those funds somewhere else instead, go for it.

[Josh Hill]

David,

 

But if you were shooting with a 16BL you had a Crystal Sync camera. While there may have been a slight drift because of the transfer, I don't think it applies at all to the problem the user is facing (which is his cameras are not sync).

 

When I transferred from my CP16 (after recording audio on my XL1s) I didn't have an issue with drift, though. Or perhaps my shots were simply short enough that drift was imperceptible?

[David Sweetman]

no it's not crystal sync. Even so, I think the 16bl will generally run at a more constant speed than his cameras.

 

The drift I was getting was perceptible during a one-minute take. Until recently I thought it was because my camera was not crystal sync, but at a meet with this guy at the post house, I told him about it and he was like, "Oh yeah, of course, yadda yadda yadda pulldown and whatnot."

[Josh Hill]

I was unaware they made non-crystal BLs

[Sam Wells]

It's very possible to sync it yourself. It takes some messing around, but you can get it done. I might have to resort to this method for the film I'm shooting in July, if for some reason I can't get my old high school's DAT recorder.

 

You have to pull down the DAT recording in post also if you want to sync properly with film that's been transferred on a telecine.

 

-Sam

[Philippe Lignieres]

<<<<<<Is there any chance that the dialogue and the film would be able to match well enough to be a "Faux sync sound Film"????

 

 

Yes, of course, Kircules, you just have to adjust sound lenght in post to telecine lenght. In most case,adjust sound lenght cannot be heard.

 

With super8 which electric motor,you can clap on beginning plus end clap, it's easier.

[Brian Drysdale]

I was unaware they made non-crystal BLs

 

A lot of the Arri 16 BLs had an external crystal sync units attached, but without this most unit of the cameras were non crystal. The later EQ? or EL? model of the Arri 16BL had built in crystal sync.

[Jan Weis]

I'm facing a similar problem but I'll be using a beaulieu R16 with an electric motor. Will it hold sync under a minute of dailogue?

 

//Jan

[Stuart McCammon]

Kircules and ozzball,

 

Read Robert Rodriguez's book, "Rebel Without A Crew." Rent the DVD of El Mariachi and watch the Ten Minute Film School. Think about your project - are you really going to have an actor or actors talking for one minute without any kind of cuts? How much do you really need synched at one time? If your answers are needing anywhere more than a few seconds of sound synched at one time, you might want to rethink how you are going to shoot your project and/or the equipment you are going to use, because using non-synch gear to shoot a minute of dialogue sounds either mind-numbingly frustrating or unintentionally funny, depending on your perspective)

[Freya Black]

Phillipe beat me to saying this, but a common S8 trick where there are fairly consistant electric motors is to slate your footage head and tails. You then record the audio on a crystal sync device such as mini disc etc, and then you can time stretch the audio to match the video in post so that the clapper lines up with the sound both at the beginning and end. Hopefully you should then find the audio would be in sync in between.

 

I expect this would work with a beaulieu R16 with electric motor but I'm not sure about a clockwork camera. Electric motors tend to be more consistant.

 

love

 

Freya

 

<<<<<<Is there any chance that the dialogue and the film would be able to match well enough to be a "Faux sync sound Film"????

Yes, of course, Kircules, you just have to adjust sound lenght in post to telecine lenght. In most case,adjust sound lenght cannot be heard.

 

With super8 which electric motor,you can clap on beginning plus end clap, it's easier.

[Sam Wells]

If it's drififting time streatching won't neccessarily solve the problem either.

 

You may have to go in a chop up your sound anyway.

 

If you want dead on frame accurate sync

 

-Sam

[Kirk Anderson]

Yeah, I've read "Rebel without a crew", sick book and totally inspiring. Made me buy my first 16mm camera, but thanks for the input, anyone have any examples of doing this that they could post??

 

I'll have one in about two weeks, I'm shooting this week but i need $100 for processing at Forde. I'm waiting for my paycheck next week and I'm totally dead after buying stock.

 

Kirk

[Stuart McCammon]

Yeah, I've read "Rebel without a crew", sick book and totally inspiring. Made me buy my first 16mm camera, but thanks for the input, anyone have any examples of doing this that they could post??

 

I'll have one in about two weeks, I'm shooting this week but i need $100 for processing at Forde. I'm waiting for my paycheck next week and I'm totally dead after buying stock.

 

Kirk

 

In "Rebel without a Crew" and the 10 minute film schoo on the El Mariachi DVD, Robert Rodriguez discusses sound and what he had to do with it at length, might want to re-read it and watch the DVD. He also shows exactly how he shot El Mariachi, some interesting techniques)

[Jan Weis]

thanks for the tip,Stuart I'll order it on amazon today. I wasnt planning on using 1 minute dialogue well all accept one speach, and I have kept in mind that fact that I'll have sync problems while writing my script so its become more visual than soap opera like.

 

Gotta go now and order that damn book!

 

Thanks once again.

[Andy_Alderslade]

Slightly embarrased to show this (made it in under an hour!) but this was shot with K3 with audio recorded after filming on mini disc recorder, 'Rodreguize style.' Should have had a tape recorder recording a guide track while filming, because the Spanish guy couldn't remember if he said his lines correctly, which really made syncing impossilbe.

 

http://www.jumpcut.com/view?id=184D2F66CB0...4BB1E5938C41118

 

but anyway it demonstrates possibilities.

[Nick Mulder]

The two wind up bolex's I've used will lose ~2fps from a full wind down to the stop. The problem is that the speed loss is not linear, there is a deceleration as the friction becomes increasingly more active in the system...

 

Start and end slates will not give perfect results as the beginning will need more compression relative to the end (or is it less ! :huh:) - by using an integral approach the more slices you cut the sound into and compress/stretch the more accurate the final result will be, a fair amount of work in any case ...

[Kirk Anderson]

good deal, thanks a lot everyone and i'll post my project soon...

Also as a student using a windup and spending significantly more time in post is ok with me, because like most of the people in this forum, I have more time than money.

 

kirk

[Richardson Leao]

i recentely build a little device that feeds the parallel port (printer port) of a linux laptop with the 50Hz signal of my kinor + the start signal for it to start recording. the laptop start the recording in sync and also register the variations of the sync signal. I have also a k3 and I thought i might be able to record the noise from the camera in stead of the sync signal. in my understanding (didn't test it yet), the camera noise may have the same frequency (or at least the same phase) of the speed of the film. Because the computer is registering the both the frequency of the noise and the sound in a timed manner, my other little program can generate a sound sygnal that varies its speed accordingly to the frequency of the sync signal. If you (or someone else) thinks that it's an OK idea, i'll find a way to write a page explaining how to build your own crystal sync recorder.

 

 

So, heres my idea....

 

I have:

1)a 16mm bolex

2) two Krasnogorsk 3s. One Bayo and one M42

*** all three are windup.***

 

Then I have:

1) Marantz PMD 201 Tape Recorder

2) Shure SM 58

3)Shure SM57

4)Cables to hook them up to my Marantz Tape deck.

 

If I had a Mic on a boom above a table scene and had my Camera wrapped in an old Parka/Makeshift Barney/Vacum box...lol

 

then Used a Clap board in the shot and recorded the snap and filmed the 30 seconds dialouge that it possible on my windups.

 

then telecined my roll and brought it into final cut along with the Audio track off My Marantz.....

 

Is there any chance that the dialogue and the film would be able to match well enough to be a "Faux sync sound Film"????

 

Has anyone attempted anything like this? or has any experience?

 

The Bolex and one of the K3's is actually remarkably quiet and I was thinking I could mix out any other camera noise.

 

I know it would take some balls and a crap load of luck to pull off, but someone has had to try to do this before me.

 

any ideas?

[Freya Black]

Start and end slates will not give perfect results as the beginning will need more compression relative to the end (or is it less ! :huh:) - by using an integral approach the more slices you cut the sound into and compress/stretch the more accurate the final result will be, a fair amount of work in any case ...

 

I really don't think slating tail and end is that practical with clockwork motors. As I said in my other posting the motors are less consistant in speed. Electric motors are often more consistant but not at exact speeds (tho this too can vary from motor to motor). By the time you are using a clockwork motor you are probably down to doing quite short takes to stay in sync and then you have to question whether it is worth wasting the film to do the second slate. Probably not.

 

With electric motors it may be worth trying out,.It works with S8 cameras and may work with things like the beaulieu R16 or canon scoopic I suspect but you will have to run a test to see Obviously the longer your take the more chance of drift too..

 

love

 

Freya

[Nick Mulder]

i recentely build a little device that feeds the parallel port (printer port) of a linux laptop with the 50Hz signal of my kinor + the start signal for it to start recording. the laptop start the recording in sync and also register the variations of the sync signal. I have also a k3 and I thought i might be able to record the noise from the camera in stead of the sync signal. in my understanding (didn't test it yet), the camera noise may have the same frequency (or at least the same phase) of the speed of the film. Because the computer is registering the both the frequency of the noise and the sound in a timed manner, my other little program can generate a sound sygnal that varies its speed accordingly to the frequency of the sync signal. If you (or someone else) thinks that it's an OK idea, i'll find a way to write a page explaining how to build your own crystal sync recorder.

 

sounds like we are interested in the same stuff !

 

I plan on making a system where a wind up bolex will provide the sync for any multitude of electric bolexes (two EL's so far) - these are also all sync'ed with strobe lights (;

 

at this stage I'm got a working xtal sync on one EL and the strobe lights going also, just gotta work on the rest when I get some time...

 

Also planned is a moco system that will use a similar parallel port interface, one option will be using the camera sync output to run the clock of the moco ...

[Christian Blas]

Slightly embarrased to show this (made it in under an hour!) but this was shot with K3 with audio recorded after filming on mini disc recorder, 'Rodreguize style.' Should have had a tape recorder recording a guide track while filming, because the Spanish guy couldn't remember if he said his lines correctly, which really made syncing impossilbe.

 

http://www.jumpcut.com/view?id=184D2F66CB0...4BB1E5938C41118

 

but anyway it demonstrates possibilities.

 

How did you make the K-3 silent and record audio to it? What are the steps into doing this process? How much did you spend? And by any chance is this a long and hard process? I need to know...my movie feature depends on it.

[Richardson Leao]

sounds like we are interested in the same stuff !

 

I plan on making a system where a wind up bolex will provide the sync for any multitude of electric bolexes (two EL's so far) - these are also all sync'ed with strobe lights (;

 

at this stage I'm got a working xtal sync on one EL and the strobe lights going also, just gotta work on the rest when I get some time...

 

Also planned is a moco system that will use a similar parallel port interface, one option will be using the camera sync output to run the clock of the moco ...

 

if you want my coding let me know...