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Vision3 print for projection


Luigi Castellitto
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I agree with David and other: If you have to be cut and spliced negative to create, example, a long or short reels (for example for the transport) it's Ok, but for the traditional edit is not well.

Although my negatives, in this case, are only two 30m reels of not very very important film are anyway precious. And, especially!, for the fact that's impossibile find a precise point to cut without "machinery" that describe Tyler. Then, It should help with digitization, but it's another argument...

Thanks for the advices.
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A note: in amateur use of 16mm (without professional print steps), how can bring the same edit sequence of the work print copy on the original negative? With an help of a laboratory? Because the risk of ruining the negative and the difficulty in identifying the scenes (those mounted in work print copy) remains, and "at home", without necessary machines, it's difficult identify and use the key code.

 

 

Curiosity: in this amateur case it's possible to have, at laboratory, a final release print from working print (the laboratory would occupy the print steps) and not from original negative? Leaving, therefore, the negative not edited.

Edited by Luigi Castellitto
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A print of a work print would look pretty bad, too contrasty, plus you can't print positive-to-positive anymore (you'd need a reversal dupe stock for that) so you'd be making an internegative from the work print in order to then make a print from the internegative. It's be cheaper and better to just get the 16mm original negative cut so you can make a decent 16mm print from that (traditionally you'd get the negative cut into A-B rolls.)

 

You match cut the original negative from the work print by following the keycode numbers on the edge (you'd want to make sure your work print copied those edges over) -- you don't necessarily have to use the barcode. The main problem is that once you start cutting the picture plus sound, you used to get the synced rolls ink printed with numbers so that once you broke things up into little bits you could still match picture to sound. In film school, we edited a one minute short from a single three-minute 100' roll of 16mm, so we just manually wrote the inked numbers using a sharpie. I don't remember if the inked numbers were the same as the edge code numbers or if they were their own numbering sequence.

 

Truth is today that if you don't want to cut your 16mm original negative, you'd do a digital intermediate, scan selects off of the camera rolls, conform them to match the offline cut. From that you'd make a color-corrected digital master with the option to record it out to 35mm.

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The edge numbers were a law unto themselves- they didn't match the stock edge numbers. Each inking run would start something like AAAA 0000 and increment every 20 frames.

But there's probably no more Acmade tape in the world- Ken Loach begged the last few rolls from Pixar for the last picture he cut on film.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-24724693

Edited by Mark Dunn
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Ok, thanks for other info, very useful!!


But then... those few users who shot amateur short films with a 16mm and a Vision3, and don't use digitalization, what solution adopt? I'm not practical because I shot in all small formats, but always in reversible.

At this point, it's a good solution to use, as a final product, an edited work print copy? Yes, you see joints in projection, but it's the same of reversible films.

I don't say to use a "final release prin"t for editing and use as final product, because it's in polyester (the workprint copy in acetate) and it would take the splicing with tape, more rare...

I say products that are not sent to professional circuits, at maximun in amateur club or festival, not for tv, not for more copies (but one copy only), and of length not greater than 5-10 minutes

How about as a last resort to not have the problems with the negative and codes?
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What would it be smartest way to work sound when cutting workprint on flatbed today?

I was thinking if I have dialog on sepmag and use it only for editing and then you scan your cutted neg or IN and make the soundtrack cut then. Then I wouldn't have claps for sync the sound. Maybe it would be necessary to scan neg before cutting to have claps for sync or maybe to scan only the takes you have selected from workprint…

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If you have a flatbed at your disposal, SEPMAG would still work for the basic sync sound. Since nobody is still mixing with multiple SEPMAG machines, I would then do a telecine from the workprint + SEPMAG and add the M&E tracks in an NLE to get a final mix. The final mix can then be transfered to SEPOPT if going to a 16mm or 35mm print, or used as digital sound in DCP or other deliverables.

We still do 16mm SEPOPT tracks, mostly for artists and experimental films, it has the undeniable 16mm optical feel that is part of the show, strictly mono of course;

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You can have a simple workprint made, nothing prevents you from using it a projection original; The added bonus is that you can make another copy if you need to . The current price is 0.75€/m + VAT 21%.

 

 

I think he is talking about using the spliced work print to make prints off of, which would require a dupe negative be made first.

 

Sure, he can screen the work print itself but it would be silent unless run in interlock.

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I think he is talking about using the spliced work print to make prints off of, which would require a dupe negative be made first.

 

Sure, he can screen the work print itself but it would be silent unless run in interlock.

 

Sorry, David, I don't speak English well, but I meant to use the workprint as screening copy (no problem for visible joints).
As for the sound, which I don't always need because I take also from external sources, a workprint has no chance to have magnetic stripe? No optical.
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Unfortunately, there really is no way around the correct process.

 

- Work print from camera negative

- Edit work print w/audio if needed

- Conform negative to match work print (A/B roll)

- Make optical audio (if needed) master

- Make final print of picture and audio directly off the negative

 

The problem with 16mm is that without using the A/B roll system, you will always see splices, tape, glue, ultrasonic, doesn't matter.

 

The only way to prevent seeing splices is to use the process above.

 

Ohh and no, there is no way to add audio to an already processed print. Magnetic stripe is long dead and optical tracks have to be put in during the making of the print.

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At best you can do what I did for my Super-8 screenings, which is play music from a secondary source in very, very rough sync by starting the music playback at the start of the picture. I edited the music but avoided having to have a cue that hit in a precise moment, it was more of a generic mood music that shifted with the movie but didn't need to stay in exact sync.

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David, I meant using the workprint to screen the film just as you would with a reversal original. There is a free software program that will run a wav file in sync to a 24 Hz signal generated by a projector. This may be useful for low-cost projection alternatives.

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Is there even a supply of 16 or 35mm mag stock left?

Yea you can get mag stock, I have lots of it.

 

You can't glue magnetic striping onto film however.

 

Now maybe some speciality shop in Europe can, but for the rest of the world, it's impossible. Heck, it would also be nearly impossible to make a recording on it because MOST projectors were playback only.

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Some amusing observations pertaining to what is correct and proper may be in order.....

 

In the 80s, the art school crew and their fiends (the art school crew), all were sincere, but befuddled by the glamour of the legitimate film industry. I can say, all my film maker friends began as artists, but many ended up as whores to the legitimate industry, directing some of the Zena or Hercules series or something similar.... Those swines, how dare they succeed, and abandon their fundamental precepts.

 

What is correct and proper...? There are embedded assumptions about the nature of the film (a film in the generic sense, encompassing all moving pictures). As if all films had the same function, pupose, social, psycological and commercial boundaries.

 

Well of course they don't....

 

There was a nice young chap on the forum a while ago, shooting surf movies on S16, projecting WP I thought with approximately synced sound delivered separately. Surf movies, if they are a genre, are gobbled up by surfers, and reguardless of whether the sound has been synced or not, are experienced as a a sort of floating continuity of picure and sound, experienced as a singularised thing...

 

So what's proper, correct. Do the wiggling syncronized lips rule...?

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You can't glue magnetic striping onto film however.

 

Post-striping was common on S8. Super 8 Sound, which eventually became Pro8mm, used to do this in Cambridge. From earlier in this thread:

 

According to their price list, Andec still magstripes 16mm acetate and polyester film. Whether or not striping a spliced workprint is possible I don't know.
It's not an ideal workflow, and is probably hugely expensive. Not to mention there aren't as many devices that can play mag striped 16mm as there are those that can play optical. But it's certainly possible.
Edited by Perry Paolantonio
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