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2022 Film Stock Price Increases?


Robin Phillips
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17 minutes ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

Who is "everyone?" I cannot recall having a problem with anyone else but you.

Right, you have a problem with me, not the other way around. I haven't critiqued your films. I haven't done anything to bother you, besides being brutally honest about things that really have nothing to do with you personally. 

Your very first post here since you came back was a direct attack at one of my comments: 

Then you spouted some nonsense about people who shoot on film being "divas" and talking about massive rigs, noisy motors, hot lights, massive dolly that you "could never afford a camera with a rock solid image". 

 

That comment let me to research your other films to see what issues you struggled with in the past. Having watched the only short available online, it was very clear there were many misconceptions that needed to be corrected. 

17 minutes ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

You take that as a weapon to start acting like my teacher when I never asked you for anything. I truthfully dont want your opinion and cringe everytime I see you reply to my posts.

If you say things that are false because of missing knowledge, then we (it was a few of us commenting) are useless for not correcting those mistakes. I would for sure hope other people correct my mistakes or we will never learn and this place will be worthless to everyone. 

Then you criticize me about how out of touch I am about "indy" filmmaking, when I'm literally wrapping up my 4th indy film, that's being internationally distributed with a limited theatrical run for academy qualification due to our decent original soundtrack.  

Meanwhile, you had the balls to say the screen grabs from my last film were not up to your standard, as some sort of "dig" on my abilities?

I took the time out of my day to grade your sample professionally, with multiple nodes, power windows and to a level that is (all be it not perfect) close to where it would need to be in order to be acceptable. I did that to help you since this group is for cinematographers, not editors and colorists. So most people just dabble in color and I actually do it for real. I did it, even though you went out of your way to put me down on every occasion possible. 

I have not once, not a single time said anything negative about you personally. Your decision making process maybe flawed, but that's inexperience that can be solved over time and through education. Every single time I talked about other people, like YouTubers or other indy filmmakers, you were instantly triggered and resorted to name calling. 

17 minutes ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

I have zero problem with anyone else on this site but you.

Not true at all, you told other people to mind their own business as well. 

17 minutes ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

And do I need to remind you of that thread when Gregg and Robin nearly left because of you?

Robin and Gregg have defaced this group with the meanest, most hateful comments I have ever seen on a group like this. They have been long deleted, which is why you think it's all my fault.  

If you are triggered because someone complains about a certain type of camera and the only thing you can do about it is name call, you should not be on the internet period.  

This place has zero issues when people aren't triggered. 

17 minutes ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

I freely admitted that I used to be a tool on this site and I came back trying to do better.

Yea you were "purposely" a tool and you say I have mental health issues? 

17 minutes ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

And how did you teach college when you admitted you don't have a Master-level or above degree? You admitted that you didn't go to Grad school and I know that no accredited program is going to let you teach post secondary classes without a minimum of a Master.

 

I think one of my compatriots here on the group tried to send you to my film school's website, so you could check out what we do. Alas, you must have skimmed over it. Outside of working part time as a teacher at LACHSA, I also worked directly with three other professors at 3 other colleges; Cal State Northridge, Cal State LA and LMU. Two of those professors would have me in to lecture on a regular basis. Most of my lectures were about indy filmmaking, from script to finished product. They really liked having someone in class to discuss what the process is like, since I've co-produced two successful internationally distributed indy features. I also lectured about shooting on motion picture film and Cal State Northridge has two 35mm projectors in their cinema program auditorium, so we were getting close to being able to show things as well, but covid hit and sadly those adjunct professors I worked with, either quit or moved out of town. The worst was losing my LMU connection, that was horrible. He was one of my closest friends in Hollywood, fantastic filmmaker and teacher. He sent me students to work with at my place instead of doing lecturing because it's hard to have 25+ students touch two or three cameras. So he'd send them in small groups over to my place and we'd shoot little projects. A bit of that footage is in my YouTube series, if you look closely you'll see some strange "test" footage, that's nearly all student produced. 

I would like to finish my masters program someday, but being a professor at a film school doesn't interest me anymore. I have way too many skills to be stuck teaching, even though I really enjoy it. 

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12 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Right, you have a problem with me, not the other way around. I haven't critiqued your films. I haven't done anything to bother you, besides being brutally honest about things that really have nothing to do with you personally. 

Your very first post here since you came back was a direct attack at one of my comments: 

Then you spouted some nonsense about people who shoot on film being "divas" and talking about massive rigs, noisy motors, hot lights, massive dolly that you "could never afford a camera with a rock solid image". 

 

That comment let me to research your other films to see what issues you struggled with in the past. Having watched the only short available online, it was very clear there were many misconceptions that needed to be corrected. 

If you say things that are false because of missing knowledge, then we (it was a few of us commenting) are useless for not correcting those mistakes. I would for sure hope other people correct my mistakes or we will never learn and this place will be worthless to everyone. 

Then you criticize me about how out of touch I am about "indy" filmmaking, when I'm literally wrapping up my 4th indy film, that's being internationally distributed with a limited theatrical run for academy qualification due to our decent original soundtrack.  

Meanwhile, you had the balls to say the screen grabs from my last film were not up to your standard, as some sort of "dig" on my abilities?

I took the time out of my day to grade your sample professionally, with multiple nodes, power windows and to a level that is (all be it not perfect) close to where it would need to be in order to be acceptable. I did that to help you since this group is for cinematographers, not editors and colorists. So most people just dabble in color and I actually do it for real. I did it, even though you went out of your way to put me down on every occasion possible. 

I have not once, not a single time said anything negative about you personally. Your decision making process maybe flawed, but that's inexperience that can be solved over time and through education. Every single time I talked about other people, like YouTubers or other indy filmmakers, you were instantly triggered and resorted to name calling. 

Not true at all, you told other people to mind their own business as well. 

Robin and Gregg have defaced this group with the meanest, most hateful comments I have ever seen on a group like this. They have been long deleted, which is why you think it's all my fault.  

If you are triggered because someone complains about a certain type of camera and the only thing you can do about it is name call, you should not be on the internet period.  

This place has zero issues when people aren't triggered. 

Yea you were "purposely" a tool and you say I have mental health issues? 

 

I think one of my compatriots here on the group tried to send you to my film school's website, so you could check out what we do. Alas, you must have skimmed over it. Outside of working part time as a teacher at LACHSA, I also worked directly with three other professors at 3 other colleges; Cal State Northridge, Cal State LA and LMU. Two of those professors would have me in to lecture on a regular basis. Most of my lectures were about indy filmmaking, from script to finished product. They really liked having someone in class to discuss what the process is like, since I've co-produced two successful internationally distributed indy features. I also lectured about shooting on motion picture film and Cal State Northridge has two 35mm projectors in their cinema program auditorium, so we were getting close to being able to show things as well, but covid hit and sadly those adjunct professors I worked with, either quit or moved out of town. The worst was losing my LMU connection, that was horrible. He was one of my closest friends in Hollywood, fantastic filmmaker and teacher. He sent me students to work with at my place instead of doing lecturing because it's hard to have 25+ students touch two or three cameras. So he'd send them in small groups over to my place and we'd shoot little projects. A bit of that footage is in my YouTube series, if you look closely you'll see some strange "test" footage, that's nearly all student produced. 

I would like to finish my masters program someday, but being a professor at a film school doesn't interest me anymore. I have way too many skills to be stuck teaching, even though I really enjoy it. 

So you werent actually a teacher at college, you were a guest speaker? It might have been helpful to make that clear since I have never heard of a college allowing instructors of record to teach without a Grad degree in a field where it can reasonably be expected.

I am sad to hear that Gregg and Robin were "deleted". They were actually banned? Wow, this place is not what it used to be.

Interestingly enough is that RedUser is much more popular and has a lot of the old members who used to post here. Not sure why they don't post here anymore.

But I do think that it is time for me to find another forum that doesn't have you present. There is no further point arguing with you because you will always rationalize it as someone else's fault and your divine right to get involved.

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19 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

Fair enough. The answer is yes, Robin, film prices will go up...and up...and up. They will never go down and always up. Has never changed in the 20 years since I shot my first roll.

Contrast that with digital where I purchased a Canon XL2 in 2005 for $5,000 and now I can get a 6k cinema camera for half that price. Amazing, innit?

I think you missed my point. I had a specific question cause it pertains to some upcoming projects in the new year where creative is thinking about shooting film. It has nothing to do with wanting to purchase another camera. If it goes digital we'd rent.

I dont understand why every time film cinematography comes up on this forum someone has to chime in to basically say "shooting film is dumb" and start a whole fight. You may think that, but some of us are just looking for answers to things that pertain to the business end of making something on the medium creative wants to use. Thats suppose to be what this forum is for, exchanging professional knowledge. 

If there is a Mod watching, the question has been answered. I think its time to close this thread. 

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4 hours ago, Robin Phillips said:

I dont understand why every time film cinematography comes up on this forum someone has to chime in to basically say "shooting film is dumb" and start a whole fight.

I think a psychologist could explain it better. But, it's easier to quit than to create. It's easier to slide down a hill than to climb it. It's easier to make yourself into a victim than to fix your life. Etc.

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15 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

So you werent actually a teacher at college, you were a guest speaker? It might have been helpful to make that clear since I have never heard of a college allowing instructors of record to teach without a Grad degree in a field where it can reasonably be expected.

I don't consider someone who attends every class for an entire semester, year after year a "guest speaker". I actually did a lot of lecturing on film history, script/story development and of course anything related to the different professions on a filmset. So many of the professors at those schools I lectured at, had not been in the industry very long. Talented as they were, things change fast. If you aren't constantly busy making stuff, you will be out of date quick. 

15 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

I am sad to hear that Gregg and Robin were "deleted". They were actually banned? Wow, this place is not what it used to be.

If you re-read what I said, I was referring to their posts as being deleted, never once mentioning their user accounts, which are of course still active. 

15 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

Interestingly enough is that RedUser is much more popular and has a lot of the old members who used to post here. Not sure why they don't post here anymore.

RedUser is a support group for Red cameras. It has nothing to do with cinematography, even though they have a totally dead cinematography section. Oh and yea when I use to shoot Red a lot for commercial work, I was on there quite a bit trying to come up with solutions to cracked monitor mounts and cameras that wouldn't boot up. 

15 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

But I do think that it is time for me to find another forum that doesn't have you present. There is no further point arguing with you because you will always rationalize it as someone else's fault and your divine right to get involved.

I have been nothing but kind, understanding and direct with my responses. I have helped you answer many questions and I have not called you names or belittled your projects. You came back on here and the first thing you did was get triggered in the middle of a conversation that had nothing to do with you at all. As if, any of the technology or techniques discussed were ones you invented, so you must defend them to the death. Same goes for Robin and his love for Sony cameras. He defends garbage products as if he designed them, as if his paycheck said Sony on it. Yet I'm the guy who has to deal with the issues on productions AND when the cameras needed to go in for service for things no other cameras had issues with. If you saw the bullshit I had to deal with, you would be ready to throw the cameras out the window. I stayed calm and sorted things out. 

You come on to a group thats mostly populated by film people, or people who want to work on film, exclaiming that film people are elitists and spouting utter nonsense that is just not true. Coming from someone who admittedly doesn't even shoot film anymore, acting like in the few years since they have, that things are worse?!?! 

So no, you don't get to spin this and make it all my fault, especially when other people on here agree with me. If you wish to leave, that would be unfortunate because you have a lot of great questions that should be answered by professionals. I care about everyone who wants to make product, but I wish to inform them of the proper way to be successful, even if they don't want to hear it. 

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57 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

I don't consider someone who attends every class for an entire semester, year after year a "guest speaker". I actually did a lot of lecturing on film history, script/story development and of course anything related to the different professions on a filmset. So many of the professors at those schools I lectured at, had not been in the industry very long. Talented as they were, things change fast. If you aren't constantly busy making stuff, you will be out of date quick. 

But that is not how it works, Tyler. And this part IS my field of expertise. The requirements for a Masters or above is not a college policy as much as an accreditation issue. Exceptions are sometimes made but usually for: 1) a Grad student who is acting as a TA (another professor is still the "instructor of record"). This is usually done so the PhD professor can have more time to conduct research. 2) "Guest speakers" are brought in to round out the theoretical with a little real world knowledge but this is not generally the focus of the course. College is not primarily about learning a trade as much as learning to think in a way that is conducive to the trade. This is a common complaint from many who graduate college and say "industry isnt like this!". Well, it isnt supposed to be. College is the time to think of things in an optimal way and provide training wheels and a firm theoretical background that can be carried into the real world (where you learn the practical or procedural portion).

Just to make sure I am understanding you correctly, are you saying that you were at every lecture while the instructor of record lets you talk to his/her class? If this is true, I would assume that the instructor needs to be fired as they are not doing their job and are circumventing accreditation standards. I would be curious to know what institution permitted this if you can name names?

1 hour ago, Tyler Purcell said:

If you re-read what I said, I was referring to their posts as being deleted, never once mentioning their user accounts, which are of course still active. 

Thanks for the clarification. That is a relief as I assumed the reason some people (myself included at times) were not banned from here was because Tim permitted a certain level of free speech among adults. I hope they deleted their posts of their own volition instead of it being scrubbed against their will.

1 hour ago, Tyler Purcell said:

RedUser is a support group for Red cameras. It has nothing to do with cinematography, even though they have a totally dead cinematography section. Oh and yea when I use to shoot Red a lot for commercial work, I was on there quite a bit trying to come up with solutions to cracked monitor mounts and cameras that wouldn't boot up. 

I did not find their Cinematography section any deader than anywhere else (here included). I admit that the Jarred Land model of "DVXUser", "RedUser", "BMCUser" is getting a bit played out.

1 hour ago, Tyler Purcell said:

I have been nothing but kind, understanding and direct with my responses. I have helped you answer many questions and I have not called you names or belittled your projects. You came back on here and the first thing you did was get triggered in the middle of a conversation that had nothing to do with you at all. As if, any of the technology or techniques discussed were ones you invented, so you must defend them to the death. Same goes for Robin and his love for Sony cameras. He defends garbage products as if he designed them, as if his paycheck said Sony on it. Yet I'm the guy who has to deal with the issues on productions AND when the cameras needed to go in for service for things no other cameras had issues with. If you saw the bullshit I had to deal with, you would be ready to throw the cameras out the window. I stayed calm and sorted things out. 

Tone is impossible to judge in an online environment. You do have a habit of throwing in certain "buzzwords" that imply aggression. Listen to this part where you said "garbage products" as though there are not professionals some where using those tools that you disparage? Yet, you have a very short fuse when anything concerning the film workflow is questioned. Is it fair to be critical but "if you dish it out, you must take it."

1 hour ago, Tyler Purcell said:

You come on to a group thats mostly populated by film people, or people who want to work on film, exclaiming that film people are elitists and spouting utter nonsense that is just not true. Coming from someone who admittedly doesn't even shoot film anymore, acting like in the few years since they have, that things are worse?!?! 

I am aware of where I am. You might be surprised to know that I have been a registered user here longer than you. I started out at DVXUser even though I owned an XL2 at the time. I had a cool dude there expose me to Super 8 footage and my perspective changed toward film. I quickly found that a harsh place to enjoy film and was recommended to come here...which I did. The peace lasted all of about 8 minutes until the Red One wars started...

1 hour ago, Tyler Purcell said:

So no, you don't get to spin this and make it all my fault, especially when other people on here agree with me. If you wish to leave, that would be unfortunate because you have a lot of great questions that should be answered by professionals. I care about everyone who wants to make product, but I wish to inform them of the proper way to be successful, even if they don't want to hear it. 

"Others agree with me" is another logical fallacy, Tyler. That is the "Argumentum Ad Populum" fallacy. It is no different than saying "1 million Elvis fans cant be wrong!" But why can't they be?

I don't want to leave a site that I have been registered to for 15 years and already financially supported. I would support it again if given the chance. But I don't want to be shadowed every post or thread I make with your specter constantly taking a contrarian viewpoint. I even offered a "cease fire" with you but you had to go and attack academics. Even if you were not intending to attack me personally, you cannot honestly believe that is in good taste. 

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2 hours ago, Karim D. Ghantous said:

I think a psychologist could explain it better. But, it's easier to quit than to create. It's easier to slide down a hill than to climb it. It's easier to make yourself into a victim than to fix your life. Etc.

Aren't you one of those guys on RedUser that is always taking about how great Red products are? Now you are all of a sudden a fan of film? Interesting.

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7 hours ago, Robin Phillips said:

I think you missed my point. I had a specific question cause it pertains to some upcoming projects in the new year where creative is thinking about shooting film. It has nothing to do with wanting to purchase another camera. If it goes digital we'd rent.

Robin, the truth is that none of us know the future. Film is somewhat tied to the price of Silver and Silver is a volatile commodity. If one could accurately predict the price of Silver, one could become a billionaire quickly. You might as well ask "will it rain in 6 months?" Who knows? But there is an expression "the trend is your friend" so, by following the trends of film, it is likely to continue to increase and not decrease. Besides that, you need an Oracle to advise you further and this isn't the site for that.

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2 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

Just to make sure I am understanding you correctly, are you saying that you were at every lecture while the instructor of record lets you talk to his/her class? If this is true, I would assume that the instructor needs to be fired as they are not doing their job and are circumventing accreditation standards. I would be curious to know what institution permitted this if you can name names?

We tag-teamed the classes. Believe it or not, I was invited by the program director to lecture. They paired me with multiple teachers amongst different disciplines, hence the reason why I'd lecture on multiple things. 

I mean, the only reason I don't have a masters is because as I said earlier, they wanted too much money to finish the program. It's a long story, but both of my parents worked in education for decades, I went to college for a long time as well, have 3 degrees. I know how it works and sadly, I grew up poor and was lucky to even attend college. 

2 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

Tone is impossible to judge in an online environment. You do have a habit of throwing in certain "buzzwords" that imply aggression. Listen to this part where you said "garbage products" as though there are not professionals some where using those tools that you disparage? Yet, you have a very short fuse when anything concerning the film workflow is questioned. Is it fair to be critical but "if you dish it out, you must take it."

Gosh if only you heard the sailor talk on set about the very same products I bitch about online. My complaints are tame compared to the way they talk. If you knew how the industry actually worked, how people actually talk to one another behind closed doors,  you'd probably understand where I come from. Since this place does have a lot of professionals on it, I just assume they understand my language because they've seen it before. 

2 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

I am aware of where I am. You might be surprised to know that I have been a registered user here longer than you. I started out at DVXUser even though I owned an XL2 at the time. I had a cool dude there expose me to Super 8 footage and my perspective changed toward film. I quickly found that a harsh place to enjoy film and was recommended to come here...which I did. The peace lasted all of about 8 minutes until the Red One wars started...

I don't remember why I came on here originally, but I started getting back into cinematography around 2007, so that may have been what happened. I had a really horrible experience shooting two features back to back and I totally left the industry, but had a friend who wanted to shoot a short film and I think that's why I came back. 

2 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

"Others agree with me" is another logical fallacy, Tyler. That is the "Argumentum Ad Populum" fallacy. It is no different than saying "1 million Elvis fans cant be wrong!" But why can't they be?

I mean do you want me to show you the PM's they sent me about how annoying you've been to them? lol 😛

2 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

I don't want to leave a site that I have been registered to for 15 years and already financially supported. I would support it again if given the chance. But I don't want to be shadowed every post or thread I make with your specter constantly taking a contrarian viewpoint. I even offered a "cease fire" with you but you had to go and attack academics. Even if you were not intending to attack me personally, you cannot honestly believe that is in good taste. 

So basically, if I say anything negative that has anything remotely to do with you, then you'll be triggered. 

Like if you own a Ford Fiesta and I say "oh man Fiesta's are garbage" then you'll get triggered? 

When did I attack academics? For gosh sakes, I've worked in academics for years, I have my own damn school! lol 
What you thought was an attack, was actually a suggestion on "course of action" and my own experiences with a certain type of professor. I bet you didn't know that just because you can afford a masters, doesn't make you somehow a more "educated" person. I've worked with dozens of tenure'd professors, they haven't worked in the film industry in 20 years. Do you really think they'll be able to prepare kids for what it's like to actually work in the film industry? Your comment earlier about teachers not needing to prepare their students is ridiculous. 

How about this, why don't you go to film school for 2 years, then come to Hollywood and try to become successful. 

I'm sure kids who leave your program do fine because you're teaching them what they need to know in order to perform their job. But with the arts, things change so rapidly, unless you're in it full time, you just don't know. So how are you going to prepare the kids? For gosh sakes in my broadcasting classes we used 3 TUBE cameras and 3/4" tape when the rest of the world was all digital. 

Anyway, I'm a nice guy, you should be able to tell that from all the videos you've watched of me. I'm not purposely attacking anyone or anything, I'm just speaking my mind. 

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2 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

We tag-teamed the classes. Believe it or not, I was invited by the program director to lecture. They paired me with multiple teachers amongst different disciplines, hence the reason why I'd lecture on multiple things. 

I mean, the only reason I don't have a masters is because as I said earlier, they wanted too much money to finish the program. It's a long story, but both of my parents worked in education for decades, I went to college for a long time as well, have 3 degrees. I know how it works and sadly, I grew up poor and was lucky to even attend college. 

This is complete BS and you know it. That is why you refuse to name the institution and/or the instructors of record.

2 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Gosh if only you heard the sailor talk on set about the very same products I bitch about online. My complaints are tame compared to the way they talk. If you knew how the industry actually worked, how people actually talk to one another behind closed doors,  you'd probably understand where I come from. Since this place does have a lot of professionals on it, I just assume they understand my language because they've seen it before. 

That isn't how I understood these forums. I am pretty sure that I was told when I came here that the purpose of it being a "real name forum" was to encourage people to be responsible for their words and keep it professional. Who cares what "others" do? They aren't a part of this conversation; you and I are.

2 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

I don't remember why I came on here originally, but I started getting back into cinematography around 2007, so that may have been what happened. I had a really horrible experience shooting two features back to back and I totally left the industry, but had a friend who wanted to shoot a short film and I think that's why I came back. 

No explanation needed. Was just pointing out a fact.

2 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

I mean do you want me to show you the PM's they sent me about how annoying you've been to them? lol 😛

What purpose would that serve? Not only would you violate the trust of people who confided in you but you would also expose the cowardice of people who do not have the courage to speak their mind publicly on an internet forum. Why would it bother me in the least what someone says who doesn't even have the courage to state it openly? Once again, that is not relevant to you and I. Nor does it change the "logical fallacy." I wasn't saying people don't ever agree with you. I was pointing out that it doesn't matter if they do because facts aren't determined by consensus. I would expect you to know this if you had so much education.

2 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

So basically, if I say anything negative that has anything remotely to do with you, then you'll be triggered. 

No, it means when I make a thread and specifically ask you not to comment; please don't. It isn't as though my color grading thread has anything at all to do with you or your life. Just let it pass on by and ignore it and I will ignore the threads you start.

2 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Like if you own a Ford Fiesta and I say "oh man Fiesta's are garbage" then you'll get triggered? 

Not at all. But don't get mad if you own a VW and someone comes along and says those are garbage. Dishing out what one can take is always a good policy.

2 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

When did I attack academics? For gosh sakes, I've worked in academics for years, I have my own damn school! lol 
What you thought was an attack, was actually a suggestion on "course of action" and my own experiences with a certain type of professor. I bet you didn't know that just because you can afford a masters, doesn't make you somehow a more "educated" person. I've worked with dozens of tenure'd professors, they haven't worked in the film industry in 20 years. Do you really think they'll be able to prepare kids for what it's like to actually work in the film industry? Your comment earlier about teachers not needing to prepare their students is ridiculous. 

Your "school" is not on par with a regionally accredited University. I do not disparage technical trade programs but they do not make one an academic. And you said ""Film school professors are usually failed filmmakers" and they're right. The top professors at my college in the filmmaking program, were all failed filmmakers. " I am amazed at how you can speak so poorly of people who were nice enough to bring you into their classroom to present (assuming that story is even true). And University is not about preparing people for industry. That is what you don't understand. It is about developing critical thinking skills, learning how to solve problems in the chosen field, and having a theoretical framework instead of a "grinding" mentality. In CS, I deal with this same attitude. People think CS = learn the latest programming language. But there is always going to be a new language that is in fashion. CS goes beyond what is hot at the moment and teaches the theoretical framework and unifying concepts of what makes all languages work. Therefore, you can pick up new techniques quickly. I imagine a film degree also employs "timeless" knowledge that is more than just whatever is in fashion.

2 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

How about this, why don't you go to film school for 2 years, then come to Hollywood and try to become successful.

I have zero interest in that. And never assume that everyone gets a degree for the same reason. Good practitioners don't always make good teachers and vice versa; they are two entirely different skill sets.

2 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

I'm sure kids who leave your program do fine because you're teaching them what they need to know in order to perform their job. But with the arts, things change so rapidly, unless you're in it full time, you just don't know. So how are you going to prepare the kids? For gosh sakes in my broadcasting classes we used 3 TUBE cameras and 3/4" tape when the rest of the world was all digital. 

Anyway, I'm a nice guy, you should be able to tell that from all the videos you've watched of me. I'm not purposely attacking anyone or anything, I'm just speaking my mind. 

If you want to discuss the merits of "hands on" techniques in colleges then I am all ears. My point wasn't that real world experience has no merit. My point is that, classically speaking, real world knowledge is not generally the focus on college. Even law students learn about legal theory and interpretation and tend to learn courtroom procedure in internships (or some take moot court as an elective).

You may very well be a nice guy and on set be a fun person to work with. The internet is a strange place because the impersonal nature of it makes it very hard to see the human sides to people.

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On 12/3/2021 at 7:56 AM, Karim D. Ghantous said:

If only there was a Kodak ColorPlus 200 of movie stocks. It's less than half the price of Portra. A pack of ten rolls of ColorPlus costs AU$80. A pack of five rolls of Portra 160 costs $100. $8 vs $20.

There's certainly a need for a similar kind of movie film that doesn't break the bank.  Hope Orwo or Ferrania (?) can come up with something.  Many folks would happily buy it, the future of movie-making needs them, arguably 😁😝

  btw I sell Colorplus to my customers but can't get enough of it. Kodak should figure out a way of making more of this still 35mm film, and similarly their movie division produce some kind of "essential" emulsion that everyone can afford.  Super-8 too. Non-availability of anything doesn't help.

Edited by Doug Palmer
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Film stock prices are an unfortunate result of many converging factors.  Those who simplistically blame "Kodak" as an imperial price-gouger have not done their homework.

Kodak, Kodak-Alaris, Eastman Chemicals and Sino-Promise are good starting points.  Kodak is but a shell of it's former self and has been broken into many pieces that are not centrally owned or controlled.

Another factor is the disastrous tenure of  Antonio M. Pérez as Kodak's President starting in 2003.  Pérez came from Hewlet Packard and wanted to make Kodak a Ink Jet printing giant, but wound up leading Kodak to bankruptcy in 2012.

Also, to lower tax liability, Kodak demolished many of the buildings and infrastructure need to produce film on a scale of economy everyone desires in the mid to late 2010's.  You can't coat film on desire...

Kodak is no longer the vertically integrated giant it once was, so it has to source and compete with everyone else in the market.

"Cheap" film is a fantasy;  the raw materials needed to produce film are also needed to produce solar panels, electric cars, computers, etc., etc...

Face it, we are actually quite lucky to have film at all.  I find the prices breathtaking myself, but it is still available, so enjoy it while you can, if you can...

Edited by Frank Wylie
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15 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

Robin, the truth is that none of us know the future. Film is somewhat tied to the price of Silver and Silver is a volatile commodity. If one could accurately predict the price of Silver, one could become a billionaire quickly. You might as well ask "will it rain in 6 months?" Who knows? But there is an expression "the trend is your friend" so, by following the trends of film, it is likely to continue to increase and not decrease. Besides that, you need an Oracle to advise you further and this isn't the site for that.

kodak usually posts changes that remain in place for months to a year... Again, I was just trying to get a little intel to know what to factor in to budgeting before presenting to the client. Attitude is not required for that. Furthermore the intel has been provided, and once again I suggest we all just shut this conversation down.

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12 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

This is complete BS and you know it. That is why you refuse to name the institution and/or the instructors of record.

Why would I give you information, when earlier you threatened that those professors were in the wrong? 

I have zero reason to lie about anything, especially when it's so well documented online. 

12 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

No, it means when I make a thread and specifically ask you not to comment; please don't. It isn't as though my color grading thread has anything at all to do with you or your life. Just let it pass on by and ignore it and I will ignore the threads you start.

For the record, I didn't even notice that little note you made at the very tail end of the post until AFTER I had spent all that time making the grade for you. It was unbelievable someone would resort to such behavior; "he can't post, but everyone else can". Gatekeeping is not welcome ANYWHERE on the internet. If you want to start your own website and block my IP address, that's your prerogative, but if you are on a group with other people, telling someone they can't post is unfitting behavior for this group. 

12 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

Not at all. But don't get mad if you own a VW and someone comes along and says those are garbage. Dishing out what one can take is always a good policy.

Wait, have I gotten bent out of shape because you hate film or something? No, not at all. I never called you names, I never said you couldn't post, I never argued credentials, I never said your films sucked, I never said you were an elitist. You probably don't even notice you say those things, you probably don't even understand the psychological effect they have on people. 

12 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

Your "school" is not on par with a regionally accredited University.

Nope, it's not an accredited University.

Unlike most universities, my school is a place for anyone, no gatekeeping, no financial transactions, no long-term commitments. 

If you want to learn what it's like to actually shoot on film, then you shouldn't have to be burdened by some gatekeeping. 

12 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

 I am amazed at how you can speak so poorly of people who were nice enough to bring you into their classroom to present (assuming that story is even true).

You're kind of confusing two different stories, from different times and places. The professors I worked with here in Los Angeles, they seemed to be a bit more in touch with the industry. Also, we were all friends and we talked about their failed filmmaking careers. One of them IS a successful filmmaker, but he recently had to move to another school in order to find some place where he could take time off to shoot. Two other guys actually quit teaching because both of them also moved out of Los Angeles and got jobs back in the industry again, one in broadcasting, one as a writer for TV. Then during covid, things got worse and entire programs were shut down, which meant my other friends were all let go as well. I haven't even tried to re-connect with the department heads because I'm frankly too busy to teach anyway. I'm still on the mailing lists tho, they have job opportunities all the time, but as you pointed out, need a Masters. 

I would still teach high school, but to make a long story short, the cinema program director was let go and there was a protest by the parents which meant their program was nearly de-funded. They had a few full-time positions open, but I was not interested in being stuck teaching high school full-time. I do miss it tho, I really enjoyed my time teaching high school. Tho the college kids were far more receptive. 

12 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

And University is not about preparing people for industry. That is what you don't understand. It is about developing critical thinking skills, learning how to solve problems in the chosen field, and having a theoretical framework instead of a "grinding" mentality.

Which his why so many graduates, can't find jobs. 

Look, I could go on about this all day, but suffice to say if you spend $100k on education and have no idea how to actually do your job, then the education was worthless. The piece of paper you receive is just a qualification. 

According to multiple websites, 45% of graduates are unable to find work in the field they graduated from. Covid has made it worse because prior to the holiday job growth, the unemployment rate for students has been hovering around 10% for years. It's a huge problem and you may not see it as a professor, but I see it having worked with so many students post graduation. I see they are completely unprepared for life outside of college, they have some skills, but they aren't what the industry needs. Many work as waiters or for fast food joints, hoping someday their little indy feature they made on credit cards will be seen by someone. Meanwhile they have to live at home with their parents in order to pay their debt. 

Colleges need to do more in order to prepare our kids for real work, including forcing students to do internships and get real skills. I was forced to do an internship during High School and without it, I would have never received the experiences required to work at a broadcaster, which was my first big break. 

12 hours ago, Matthew W. Phillips said:

You may very well be a nice guy and on set be a fun person to work with. The internet is a strange place because the impersonal nature of it makes it very hard to see the human sides to people.

It is, so why don't you just assume that people are nice and try not to treat them like shit? 

Edited by Tyler Purcell
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16 hours ago, Doug Palmer said:

There's certainly a need for a similar kind of movie film that doesn't break the bank.  Hope Orwo or Ferrania (?) can come up with something.  Many folks would happily buy it, the future of movie-making needs them, arguably 😁😝

Orwo will be Kodak pricing most likely. 

Ferrania Chrome I'm totally into, but only if we can process it locally. My concern is that they won't make it E-6 compatible. 

Kodak also no longer has those long-term contracts with the studio's, so if Orwo could make quantities large enough for big enough and consistent enough, they could be in business. 

We wait to see! 2022 could be a pretty great year for film honestly. 

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most likely the future will be B/W if Kodak ceases production of the Vision stocks.  the reversal E6 options are not a good alternative for cinematography use for various reasons (even when there is E6 developing kits available from other manufacturers like Tetenal).

The issue with Kodak is that they manufacture all the developing chemicals too for the ECN2 processes and it would be very difficult to replace them if they stopped production even if there would be a supply of ecn2 film stock available. The labs would quickly run out of chemicals and then no one would be able to develop the films with the same quality even when there would still be some film stock available.

So the Kodak monopoly of colour negative MP stocks and chemicals pretty much means that there is no choice than going to B/W in professional productions if Kodak would stop their film related operations.

There is, however, some very good B/W stocks available from other manufacturers and b/w will be produced as long and stills photographers shoot stills on film. ORWO produces very good b/w stocks and one can use stuff like Fomapan400 in some movie cameras easily.

Personally I have already made the transition to shoot mostly black and white stocks and it is likely that I will only continue colour shooting on 16mm when my current supply of 35mm colour negative runs out. Shooting b/w in 35mm is from 3 to 4 times cheaper than colour and I can get pretty good results from 16mm and S16 when shooting colour so will probably limit the 35mm cameras for b/w shooting and will shoot a combination of b/w and colour negative on the 16mm cameras

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7 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

most likely the future will be B/W if Kodak ceases production of the Vision stocks.  the reversal E6 options are not a good alternative for cinematography use for various reasons (even when there is E6 developing kits available from other manufacturers like Tetenal).

Kodak could work with Illford or Owro and simply re-brand their B&W stocks. Then they could focus on color only. I would see that happening for sure, but I would not see them canceling B&W stocks. 

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Thanks Tyler, Frank and Aapo for these interesting points.  

Frank says we're lucky to have film at all, and I guess he's right when you consider the effects of the pandemic, and the fact as Tyler says, Kodak has now finished being propped up by the studios. Re the current manufacturing of film, a good summary here from 2015, not sure if it's the same now:    https://eu.democratandchronicle.com/story/money/2015/03/14/kodak-makes-film-rochester/70299168/   Yes a complicated process.

Yet about the same time I recall a lady from Kodak giving an optimistic plan on introducing small compact machines that can make  almost any emulsion from the past (?)  ie. in small quanitities, presumably on special order. Does anyone remember this ?

Orwo then looks hopeful for a new colour movie film. Or as Tyler suggests, working with them maybe and concentrating more on their wonderful Vision stocks. It would be a shame indeed if Vision went the same way as Kodachrome.  (It was a relief when the new Ektachrome appeared. Thanks Kodak.)

Aapo's ideas on monochrome interesting, and hopeful. Though a future without colour movie stock is truly unthinkable. We need Mr Bezos or Mr Musk to take up analog movie-making 🙂

 

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26 minutes ago, Doug Palmer said:

Frank says we're lucky to have film at all, and I guess he's right when you consider the effects of the pandemic, and the fact as Tyler says, Kodak has now finished being propped up by the studios.

I'm very hopeful for film in general. Having worked in the film restoration industry in France, all the state-funded restorations are required to be printed back to film for long term archival purposes. Hiventy, the biggest commercial film lab in France makes a large percentage of their business only with restorations. The CNC (France's national film organisation) estimates to have spent 13.5 billion euros to restore about 15000 films since 1990 (average 90,000 € per film x 15,000 films). This is all tax-payer funded and this is only France- I'm guessing at least Germany, Austria, the Netherlands and most Scandinavian countries have similar restoration policies and budgets.

A lot of recent digitally-shot productions are going through an "analog intermediate" to add texture and natural grain to the final image. Dune is the best example. Guava Island is a smaller production example- both look fanstastic. FotoKem has their new SHIFTai service which does this as well (https://shiftai.fotokem.com/)

And the fact that filmmakers like Chris Nolan, Quentin Tarantino, PTA, Wes Anderson, Steven Spielberg, David O'Russell, Darren Aronofsky, Pablo Larrain, etc shoot a million feet of film for every project...

All of this is Kodak. I think they're ok for now even if they're no longer propped up by the studios.

We need companies like Orwo, Ferrania et al to step up for the small guys. It's a wonderful opporunity to grab this part of the market and it surprises me that no one is doing it. Ilford does 100ft bulk rolls already for their B&W stock, why not do the B&H perfs on them and sell 400ft and 1000ft rolls? Especially considering that there are only 7222 Double X and the two Orwos on the 35mm BW motion picture film market.

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One can already shoot KS perforated stills stocks with a camera which does not have registration pins. I have done it a lot with Konvas and Cameflex and I remember someone shooting them with Arri 2c. 

One of my most used stocks is Fomapan 400 in 30m (100ft) rolls. The factory core is the same 2" core used on mp stocks so it fits right into the camera when ilford stocks need respooling for having the stills core on them. One can get foma stocks in max. 50m rolls and as a special order they can make 400ft rolls (I asked it and no problem though there is minimum order for it)

So it is a matter of the pin reg camera bodies being incompatible with stills film rather than the availability of good stills stocks. 

Maybe we will resume to the era of blimped Arri 2c 's, Konvases and Cameflexes if the future of film will be b/w?

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In January 2020 THR wrote: The five major studios — Disney, NBCUniversal, Paramount, Sony and Warner Bros. — have inked new deals with Kodak, the film manufacturer said Wednesday...The initial 2015 deals were believed to have covered two years, and the latest pacts, which were set to be officially unveiled Wednesday night at the Kodak Film Awards, are believed to span a longer period.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/studios-up-kodak-deals-keep-celluloid-film-alive-1274709/

 

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5 hours ago, Gautam Valluri said:

All of this is Kodak. I think they're ok for now even if they're no longer propped up by the studios.

We need companies like Orwo, Ferrania et al to step up for the small guys. It's a wonderful opporunity to grab this part of the market and it surprises me that no one is doing it. Ilford does 100ft bulk rolls already for their B&W stock, why not do the B&H perfs on them and sell 400ft and 1000ft rolls? Especially considering that there are only 7222 Double X and the two Orwos on the 35mm BW motion picture film market.

Gautam,

I wish I were as hopeful as you, but to temper this a bit, we have to know that Orwo is currently an emulsion manufacturing concern that has no base manufacturing, coating or confection (perforating, slitting, packaging) facilities and relies on others for these services. As such, their output is pretty limited.  There have been rumors of developments in more still film production, but I have as of yet to hear of any improvement in their motion picture film production.

Ferannia is making progress, but is struggling to even fulfill P30 still film orders at the moment.  Any high-volume raw stock production for motion pictures is probably very far in the future.

Illford has emphatically stated over the last decade that it will not be returning to motion picture film stock production, ever.  Period.  Users can purchase their bulk still film and use it as configured, but there are no plans to support traditional MP stocks.

Kodak is struggling to meet current demands with their greatly reduced capacity after the demolition spree of the early 2000's.  We can only hope they are investigating a means to improve their production capabilities, but there is no obvious sign that this is occurring. 

The word I hear from European restoration facilities and archives is that budgets have been slashed and photochemical has become the exception rather than the norm.  Digital "preservation" continues, but film work is increasingly rare.

Our preservation film lab has been shut down since the beginning of the Pandemic and, with each passing month, is increasingly looking as if it may never return, despite claims to the contrary. It remains to be seen if we will every print a foot of film again.   Our staff is steadily retiring and no replacement personnel are being hired; there are not many of us left in the lab and we are all getting old.  I will be able to retire in a few years, as will most of my colleagues. 

I hope you are right, but I remain a bit dubious.  The signs are not good.

Edited by Frank Wylie
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3 hours ago, Frank Wylie said:

I wish I were as hopeful as you, but to temper this a bit, we have to know that Orwo is currently an emulsion manufacturing concern that has no base manufacturing, coating or confection (perforating, slitting, packaging) facilities and relies on others for these services. As such, their output is pretty limited.  There have been rumors of developments in more still film production, but I have as of yet to hear of any improvement in their motion picture film production.

They would need all of this in-house to achieve what they want to achieve. 

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17 hours ago, Doug Palmer said:

Yet about the same time I recall a lady from Kodak giving an optimistic plan on introducing small compact machines that can make  almost any emulsion from the past (?)  ie. in small quanitities, presumably on special order. Does anyone remember this ?

I do, yes. I also remember how they wanted to bring back Kodachrome. Well, I appreciate the fact that they had those intentions. But hey, miracles can and do happen!

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  • Tim Tyler changed the title to 2022 Film Stock Price Increases?

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