Arriflex 16S, S/B, M, M/B, BL Pricing

[Tim Carroll]

Good Morning,

Old guy here, used to run the Arri16S.com website. Trained Arriflex 16mm camera service technician. Been away for quite a while. Just visited this morning and am shocked by the plethora of misinformation and the ridiculous prices people are asking for this equipment. I hate to see people getting taken advantage of or ripped off.

First off, there is an individual making a new crystal sync motor for the Arriflex 16S, S/B, M and M/B line of cameras. I applaud this and hope he is successful. But his website states the motor will work on the Arriflex 16S and the Arriflex 16BL. This is not true. The Arriflex 16BL uses a completely different motor system than the 16S and M line of cameras.

Second, the prices people are asking for the Arriflex 16S line of cameras on the auction site are INSANE. An Arriflex 16S, in decent condition, with no lenses and no 400ft mag & torque motor should go for from about $900 to $1250 US dollars. Because remember, these cameras can only go four years maximum without service because they are wet lube cameras (which means the lubrications in them dry up every few years). And this camera is a precision machine, and if not set up properly, and maintained, the output will be choppy motion, blurry images, and possibly damaged film stock.

Also remember, regardless of what sellers are stating on the auction site, the Arri 16S is an MOS camera. It is not anywhere close to silent. If you want to shoot sync sound, you need a crystal controlled motor for the camera and a blimp.

The Arriflex 16S, without torque motor or 400ft magazine, is a great run-&-gun 16mm motion picture camera. It is lightweight, easy to handle, and when properly serviced, with decent Cooke or Zeiss lenses, it can create some really impressive footage.

So buyer beware, study those images on the auction site carefully, and ask sellers questions. Again, they're great little cameras, but an unserviced one is not worth anything near the $2500 - $7000 people are asking for them on the auction site.

Best, -Tim

[Kamran Pakseresht]

Hi Tim,

I am the individual selling the crystal sync motor. I  am sorry for the mistake on my website, I quickly did a search on which cameras used the same motors in the same line as the camera I own (the 16s) and I must have confused the models. You have given me the correct list right here so thank you for that.

 

i agree with the price frustration, I recently looked to see if I might be able to purchase a second camera (to practice doing a tear down on) and prices have jumped considerably. I purchased my original 16s for 550$ on Craigslist just 8 years ago.

 

The other thing I’ve seen quite a lot of is Arri standard mount lenses on EBay with an [Exc +5] rating or listed in “mint condition” with obviously visible fungus growth in the photos.

[Aapo Lettinen]

Ebay sellers will try everything with the prices and some prices are ridiculous but they are a bit more expensive nowadays in any case as the 16s is the lowest priced usable semipro 16mm camera available if not wanting the much larger and heavier eclairNpr (which is better camera specs wise though) . So they are worth a grand in good condition because the lower priced ones are not correctly working.

The ebay sellers have their ridiculous rating system on lenses, "excellent+++++++++++" still has rust, fungus and scratches so those ratings mean nothing and one can only evaluate by the pictures.

We will finish a 16s crystal motor pretty soon, it is entirely different concept than Kamran's so different user base I think. Will release details sometime later.

[Simon Wyss]

Call me a relic, call me what you will; say I’m old-fashioned, say I’m over the hill

The Arriflex 16 is a professional camera because it has a true mirror shutter reflex finder, a registration pin as close to the optical axis as is possible, and accepts various drive units from crank gear to pressurised air to crystal-controlled electric motors. And magazines. There are a few technical weaknesses to it, for example the inaccurate meter counter. It cost around 15,000 Deutsche Mark in its time. I also find about a grand appropriate today.

The Paillard-Bolex H-16 is an amateur camera. A PL-mount or the Bolex bayonet doesn’t change that. Lateral film guidance is the wrong way round, aperture plates are often not plane-parallel, the aperture itself can be a little askew relative to the plate, the sprocket rollers’ geometry corresponds to full pitch perforated film, short pitch or shrunken stock tends to climb on the teeth (therefore the loop restorer), the double-prism reflex finder introduces astigmatism and blur, if not answered by special RX lenses and or lenses stopped down to f/3.3 or more. A new camera had cost around 5,000 Swiss Francs. An H body alone is not worth more than $400 nowadays. A rarer model such as an H-16 S-4 can fetch up to $600.

Everything else is rip-off.

[Giray Izcan]

I see Canon Scoopics for 1500 - 4000+ all the time, which is ludicrous. 

[Tim Carroll]

3 hours ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

Ebay sellers will try everything with the prices and some prices are ridiculous but they are a bit more expensive nowadays in any case as the 16s is the lowest priced usable semipro 16mm camera available if not wanting the much larger and heavier eclairNpr (which is better camera specs wise though)

I completely disagree. The Eclair NPR is not a bad camera, and it's certainly closer to a sound sync camera than the Arriflex 16S. But the Arriflex 16S is one of the few, if not only, 16mm motion picture cameras with a true registration pin incorporated into the camera movement, which, when set up properly, along with the spring loaded side rail, will give you rock steady images, something the Eclair NPR can't claim. 

The Arriflex 16S and its siblings were the best (as far as image quality and precision) 16mm MOS motion picture cameras probably ever sold. Teamed with Zeiss or Cooke glass, footage from these cameras were a staple in Hollywood, as well as many Walt Disney Company productions.

Best, -Tim

PS: That said, they're still way over priced right now on the auction site.

[Kamran Pakseresht]

@Tim Carroll I am wondering if that is true about the NPR? I know the ACL was known for not having a registration pin but I thought the NPR did and found this quote on this NPR website here: 

https://eclaircameras.wordpress.com/npr-eclair-16/

 

• Perfect steadiness ensured by combination of a registration pin and spring loaded side pressure bar.

[Aapo Lettinen]

1 hour ago, Kamran Pakseresht said:

@Tim Carroll I am wondering if that is true about the NPR? I know the ACL was known for not having a registration pin but I thought the NPR did and found this quote on this NPR website here: 

https://eclaircameras.wordpress.com/npr-eclair-16/

 

• Perfect steadiness ensured by combination of a registration pin and spring loaded side pressure bar.

Npr has this pin-like reqistration claw which mostly stops film movement to one direction. So it steadies it but not as perfectly as a real pin.

Cameras like Arri and Kinor16 have real reg pins.

Old before end-of-80s 16mm cameras have larger tolerances overall than 90s and 2000s cameras because 16mm stock spec tolerances were tightened in 80s which allowed making better fitting tight tolerance film channels on cameras

[Tim Carroll]

A real registration pin movement has a registration pin that runs separately from the film advance claw. The advance claw moves the film forward one frame, then the registration pin moves it back by fractions of a millimeter, thereby "registering" it. This movement is VERY precise and is one of the things we had to set up each time we serviced the cameras.

Many 16mm cameras had only the advance claw, and others had a "pin" that would enter the sprocket hole and supposedly steady the frame, but they were not nearly as precise or effective as a real registration pin movement.

Best, -Tim

Edited December 16, 2024 by Tim Carroll

[Stephen Perera]

@Tim Carroll what's your view of Aatons? I have an Aaton XTR XC which has no electronics just the battery to make it go at 25fps. I specifically wanted a 16mm camera with no electronics (assuming it would be less 'problematic') and standard 16mm framing cos I shoot Hasselblad and I love framing this format plus the lenses are cheaper. I use a beautiful (to me) Cooke Varokinetal 9-50mm T2.5 lens I shoot everything with. It's a very silent camera in my view and looks nice too!

[Tim Carroll]

There are a ton of electronics in an Aaton XTR XC. It is a very nice 16mm camera, and usually good for sync sound recording (if it is properly serviced). And that Cooke Variokinetal 9-50mm is one of my favorite 16mm zooms. Nice set up you have. And it has that "cat on the shoulder" design which makes it quite comfortable to shoot with.

Best, -Tim

[Stephen Perera]

hey @Tim Carroll yeah I was trying to 'fool' myself into thinking its as basic as it gets but of course there must be tons under the hood.

Do you have any more information about the Aaton XTR XC???

I have the 'romantic' notion of it being a camera taken into the jungle and other environments by crews as a back up if the main cameras failed....

[Tim Carroll]

Haven't seen any of the Aaton XTR literature in quite some time. I did own an Aaton XTR for a number of years, thought it was a great camera.

Best, -Tim

[Aapo Lettinen]

5 hours ago, Stephen Perera said:

hey @Tim Carroll yeah I was trying to 'fool' myself into thinking its as basic as it gets but of course there must be tons under the hood.

Do you have any more information about the Aaton XTR XC???

I have the 'romantic' notion of it being a camera taken into the jungle and other environments by crews as a back up if the main cameras failed....

switches, displays and connectors tend to be the most vulnerable part of camera's electronics so reducing their amount tend to make a camera more reliable in general. It still has lots of electronics inside but the exposed easy-to-break outer parts are reduced to minimum so that it "does not break as easily" 🙂 

[Aapo Lettinen]

Just now, Aapo Lettinen said:

switches, displays and connectors tend to be the most vulnerable part of camera's electronics so reducing their amount tend to make a camera more reliable in general. It still has lots of electronics inside but the exposed easy-to-break outer parts are reduced to minimum so that it "does not break as easily" 🙂 

and being a spare camera it probably sits safely inside its pelican case most of the time so it is not exposed to elements and rough handling the same way than the main camera actually used for filming. Which makes it "more reliable" because it was in mint condition almost never been used until the main camera broke down 😄 

[Steve Switaj]

On 12/15/2024 at 6:24 AM, Tim Carroll said:

First off, there is an individual making a new crystal sync motor for the Arriflex 16S, S/B, M and M/B line of cameras. I applaud this and hope he is successful. But his website states the motor will work on the Arriflex 16S and the Arriflex 16BL. This is not true. The Arriflex 16BL uses a completely different motor system than the 16S and M line of cameras.

I know this is a reference about Kamran not realizing the drive architecture was different between the 16BL and the 16S/M and we've gotten it all cleared up now, but I did want to offer up some technical notes for anyone out there who is contemplating building a crystal speed controller for an Arri 16BL, about how these cameras typically worked.

I had one of these 35 years ago when I was new to the industry and pretty broke, and my friend also had one, and the Jensen crystal units were absurdly expensive, so I made my own crystal sync unit for them.

It's actually a pretty easy task as long as the camera has the typical “regulated” DC motor (which most of them did) and as long as motor itself still works (eh...maybe?), because all the critical signals conveniently come out to one 12 pin Amphenol connector on the back of the camera (the connector itself is still even available new)

The camera has a typical 12V brushed DC motor. The motor is connected to +V on the high side, the low side is switched to ground with a big TO-3 NPN power transistor, Base drive for this transistor is brought out to one of the pins on that external connector.

The camera has a tachometer that generates an AC pilot tone when running, IIRC 4.8KHz. It's a reasonably robust signal if not loaded too much. This tach signal is also brought out to the external connector.

There's some speed regulation circuitry in the camera that takes this tach signal and uses it to create a drive signal for the motor drive transistor. It's not really a PLL circuit the way we think of it nowadays, IIRC it's an analog circuit that integrates the tach signal and tries to drive it to match a voltage setpoint. There is no frequency reference in the sense that we'd use the term in a modern context, like a crystal oscillator, these cameras were good for, say, keeping between +/- 1FPS, but that was adequate for most purposes in the age of pilot tone.

Here's the magic - the signal from this regulator circuit then comes out of the external connector, where it's looped back into the camera as the drive signal for that power transistor.

The obvious intent was that a better, external, speed controller could simply break this loop and inject any signal it wanted into that drive transistor. Really, a pretty good and forward thinking plan from Arri from 1965.

When the electronics go bad in these cameras it usually that regulator circuit drifting out of calibration.

But that's OK, you can just ignore it, which is what I did.

I built a circuit that took the tach output signal, and a crystal-derived 4.8K reference, and fed them into an old school PLL chip (probably a Philips 7046 family) which generated a PWM signal for the drive transistor. The circuit is really small. You can fit it easily into that L-shaped cavity in the back that used to house the now-obsolete magstripe circuitry, like Clive Tobin did.  

Most of these cameras came with a gearset for 24FPS, but some sold for European TV production have a  25FPS gearset. If that's the case you change your reference frequency.

It worked really well, and that camera was a tank that made a super-stable picture. Even after I got an Aaton LTR I still used my 16BL for a decade of music video B-roll, since NTSC was 4:3 there was no downside to standard 16.

I sold it in the late 90's, but I'd like to think that it's still out there somewhere and gets to run film once in a while ...

 

 

 

 

 

[Tim Carroll]

On 12/16/2024 at 7:08 AM, Tim Carroll said:

A real registration pin movement has a registration pin that runs separately from the film advance claw. The advance claw moves the film forward one frame, then the registration pin moves it back by fractions of a millimeter, thereby "registering" it. This movement is VERY precise and is one of the things we had to set up each time we serviced the cameras.

Many 16mm cameras had only the advance claw, and others had a "pin" that would enter the sprocket hole and supposedly steady the frame, but they were not nearly as precise or effective as a real registration pin movement.

Best, -Tim

I apologize, I was confused (a senior moment), having serviced on a number of different 16mm motion picture cameras back in the day, (some of them decades ago). The Arriflex 16S registration pin does not move the film backwards by fractions of a millimeter, it actually moves the film forward (in the direction of travel) by fractions of a millimeter. Again, this "registers" the film. Sorry for the confusion.

Best, -Tim

[Simon Wyss]

Disagree. An Arriflex 16 register pin doesn’t move the film in any direction. Given the back and the lateral pressure it would only bend the hole edges. When one observes the cooperation of transport claw and registering claw, let me name it that for an instance, one sees that the film is completely stationary before the registering element gets in touch with it.

Different story with movements such as the Bell & Howell shuttle unit or the Mitchell noiseless mechanism and descendants. There the film is only lightly under back pressure at the aperture. In a Bell & Howell 2709 or an Oxberry camera there’s practically no lateral pressure on the film at the moment of contact with the pilot pins.

Edited December 29, 2024 by Simon Wyss

[Tim Carroll]

With all due respect Simon, you're wrong. The Arriflex 16S registration pin "registers" the 16mm film by advancing it by fractions of a millimeter on each frame. I know this because I was trained by the top ARRI service technician in the United States, Axel Broda, to service these cameras. You might have an Arriflex 16S camera that doesn't advance the film by fractions of a millimeter on each frame, but that is just because it is out of adjustment and needs to be serviced.

Best, -Tim

[Aapo Lettinen]

"registering" means holding it still. If some movement would be adjusted by the technician to fall short and then move the final fraction with the pins that would be their choice but that is certainly not the only way "to do it correctly" to "be allowed to call it a reg pin".

Most stable movements have the pins completely fixed and everything else moves around them. and more pins than one or two. different geometry needed then too.

---------------

Here is what I talked about when calling the NPR's system "registration claw" rather than pin. It is heavily shaped and only stops movement by downward direction, nothing else. It also pops up before the pulldown claw has disengaged from the perf. So the idea is that the claw's upper surface stops the perf at predetermined position and then the pulldown can disengage.

Kinor16cx-2m has this "real registration pin" which is very tightly fitting the perforation vertically. so it centers the film in up/down direction perfectly but is loosely fitting sideways so the lateral plate does all the work on horizontal direction. The pin engages slightly after the pulldown has retracted so it works very differently than the NPR's "claw"

 

 

[Tim Carroll]

You can call it whatever you like, but a true registration pin "registers" the film on each frame, and registering the film means moving it into the exact same position each frame, frame to frame. So the pulldown claw moves the film on an Arriflex 16S from one frame to the next and after the pulldown claw moves the film to the new frame, and stops, the registration pin, which has a curved surface front and back, slides up into the perf, and moves the film slightly (fractions of a millimeter) forward, which registers it in the same exact position, frame after frame, and then the shutter opens, exposing the film. I am no expert on other 16mm camera systems, though I have worked on quite a few, but I am an expert on the Arriflex 16S series of cameras, and I am absolutely sure how the registration pin system works on an Arriflex 16S.

Best, -Tim

[Dom Jaeger]

There used to be slight variations in perf pitch and size depending on manufacturer and age, and before the 90s the perf dimensional tolerance was a few hundredths of a mm, so registration pins in 16mm Arris have always been tapered to account for this. I was trained to check or set claw to reg pin spacing using a steel 16mm film replica tool. Entering the perf as cleanly as possible was a requirement for silent cameras like the SR series. SR3s introduced pitch adjustment to allow you to tune down the noise, because of the slight variations in perf pitch from different manufacturers.

But an Arri 16S uses a slightly smaller registration pin that doesn’t fully fill the perf height, so it makes sense to have it minutely advance the film each time it enters, as Tim describes, essentially using the lower surface of the perf for registration. Noise wasn’t an issue for these cameras. 

16mm Arri reg pins only ever control vertical steadiness, with the side rails or a side spring controlling it laterally. The pins never fill the perf width. 35mm reg pin systems are different, often utilising 2 or more pins with different dimensional specs to control both axes. 

[Fabian Schreyer]

20 hours ago, Tim Carroll said:

The Arriflex 16S registration pin "registers" the 16mm film by advancing it by fractions of a millimeter on each frame. I know this because I was trained by the top ARRI service technician in the United States, Axel Broda, to service these cameras. You might have an Arriflex 16S camera that doesn't advance the film by fractions of a millimeter on each frame, but that is just because it is out of adjustment and needs to be serviced.

That sounds quite interesting. Is there any written documentation on how to perform this kind of adjustment?

[Tim Carroll]

4 hours ago, Fabian Schreyer said:

That sounds quite interesting. Is there any written documentation on how to perform this kind of adjustment?

I have the notes and sketches I made when I was doing my apprenticeship twenty years ago with Axel, but I'm not aware of printed documentation on how to perform the adjustment. The Arriflex 16S was created and developed at a time in Germany when training was done thru apprenticeship. The master taught the apprentice step by step. It wasn't written down in books.

Best, -Tim

Edited December 31, 2024 by Tim Carroll