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Hi, I am the seller of this beauty.


I am pretty sure you can unglue the parts of the prism with acetone, then glue them back again with glass glue or something... Of course precision needs to be spot-on otherwise you will not be able to focus with accuracy anymore ... I think I am capable of doing that job .... ( I use to be a precision mechanic)

Should I try for the sake of experiment and experience for ACL lovers over here?
 

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I hate posting links that are sure to be dead when someone finds these posts in the future, but someone here might be interested now, so:

 
It's a lot of NPR gear, some of which might be interesting to someone.  To my mind, the risk of it being utterly valueless due to mold/corrosion is too high (based on both the pictures and the descriptions) but for the right (lower) price, it might be worthwhile to someone here.  I'll try to cut and paste in the entire descriptive text.
 
Duncan
 
************************************************************************************************************************
 
Some work has to be done to make these cameras and accessories work again, I advise a full servicing of all the equipment listed below even if some elements are in working condition.
The full kit is sold for 2200€. Located in Cannes, France.
- 1x Eclair NPR (n°2183) + lens and film gate caps
Good and clean condition, sometimes made a strange noise when motor is running, otherwise fluid and clean mechanics. Belonged to Hélène Routchenko (french AD).
- 1x Eclair NPR (n°271)
Show signs of use and oxydation on some parts but mechanics runs well and fluid. Intended to be used for parts. Belonged to a french documentarist who worked for FR3 and later become film teacher in Nice.
- 3x 120m french magazine (1x ORTF and 2x standard)
Mags are clean but need servicing, mechanics seem to run well.
- 1x Angénieux dove prism viewfinder + cap
Some dust and fungus inside, quite clear but dirtyness shows when a light is pointed straight.
- 1x Kinoptik viewfinder
Some dust and fungus inside, some signs of oxydation on some parts.
- 1x Perfectone Compact motor
Good working condition.
- 1x Perfectone MC1500C 24,25fps motor
Runs slow with low torque, need servicing.
- 1x Angénieux 12,5-75mm + caps and follow focus gears
Very good mechanical condition, serviced in 2021 but fungus made its way back on some elements since the servicing.
- 2x Angénieux 12-120mm
One is good optical condition except fungus, needs servicing, the other is in bad shape, mostly for parts or paper weight.
- 1x Ergonomic handle + trigger for Perfectone Compact motor
Good working condition. Middle rosette needs lubing.
- 1x Normal handle
- 1x 3*3 mattebox + 25-50 matte
- 1x XLR cable + trigger
- 1x custom sound blimp
Made to fit the Eclair NPR with all the accessories, good condition.
- 1x 16mm test film + core
- 1x 16mm core
- 1x metal case
Leather handle needs to be replaced
- Lens caps for Angénieux lenses
- 3x Eclair screws
Since I gathered them, the cameras are stored in a dry and cool environnement at my shop, with silica gels inside cases.
Don't hesitate to contact me for more informations.
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  • 4 weeks later...

Does anyone know where one can find a PL adapter for Eclairs? I know Les Bosher still makes them, but I also know one must be patient when working with him, so in the meantime, is there anywhere else one can find it?

Alternatively, I've been thinking of converting an ACL to MFT - to use the cheaper Laowa Nanomorphs, or the Sirui Anamorphics, or the DZOFilm MFT Zooms. Sharp Chinese lenses seem to balance out the softness of Super16 well and yield great results.

 

Has anyone ever done this?

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23 hours ago, Geffen Avraham said:

Alternatively, I've been thinking of converting an ACL to MFT - to use the cheaper Laowa Nanomorphs, or the Sirui Anamorphics, or the DZOFilm MFT Zooms. Sharp Chinese lenses seem to balance out the softness of Super16 well and yield great results.

The issue with such conversion is the size of the MFT mount. One would need to machine the ACL front quite a lot in order to fit a MFT mount. I can send you a photo of the front without the c-mount.

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On 12/11/2023 at 2:55 AM, Heikki Repo said:

The issue with such conversion is the size of the MFT mount. One would need to machine the ACL front quite a lot in order to fit a MFT mount. I can send you a photo of the front without the c-mount.

That would be wonderful, thank you Heikki!

P.S. do most Eclairs have a little sliding pin for holding the magazines in place? I hear stories about mags falling off, but mine has a little slider designed to go under the latch and hold it in place. I can't find pictures of other Eclairs that have it. It is a very low serial number Eclair, I think lower than the ones in the 1971 brochures. I don't remember the exact number right now, nor do I have a good photo of it, but I did find this one for now.

Thanks again!

 

IMG_6888.jpg

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2 hours ago, Geffen Avraham said:

P.S. do most Eclairs have a little sliding pin for holding the magazines in place? I hear stories about mags falling off, but mine has a little slider designed to go under the latch and hold it in place. I can't find pictures of other Eclairs that have it. It is a very low serial number Eclair, I think lower than the ones in the 1971 brochures. I don't remember the exact number right now, nor do I have a good photo of it, but I did find this one for now.

I haven't seen that before!

The issue of magazines falling is related to two different things: the magazine teeth being worn out and what's even more critical, the locking mechanism itself being too flexible (the button bends a locking metal sheet - if it's too flexible, prepare for a disaster or use some extra locking!).

My main ACL had the issue previously, I have had mags fall off with destructive results. However, my other ACLs didn't have this issue, the mechanism is very stiff and secure.

I then replaced the actual bending locking part from one of those with the more problematic one. Since that's an ACL 1, it's going to be used with 200ft mags (lesser risk of the mag falling due to its weight) whereas now my main ACL mags stay super secure without any clothespin wedged between!

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3 hours ago, Geffen Avraham said:

That would be wonderful, thank you Heikki!

P.S. do most Eclairs have a little sliding pin for holding the magazines in place? I hear stories about mags falling off, but mine has a little slider designed to go under the latch and hold it in place. I can't find pictures of other Eclairs that have it. It is a very low serial number Eclair, I think lower than the ones in the 1971 brochures. I don't remember the exact number right now, nor do I have a good photo of it, but I did find this one for now.

Thanks again!

 

IMG_6888.jpg

the little latch was only on the earliest small base models.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi, I'm looking for someone to either sell me a spare or fabricate an ACL power cable for me. The one I have is not well made and is not holding up - the pins keep slipping out of the Jaeger connector, and no matter how hard I try, I can't get them to push in far enough to "click" where they won't slip.

So I need an XLR 4-pin cable with a properly secured Jaeger connector on the other side. Ideally a short coiled cable just long enough to reach from the XLR connector at the camera to a side-mounted Eclair battery pack. For shipment, I'm located in Portugal. I will pay handsomely if I have to.

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I think I remember Jean-Louis Seguin may have made those before. He may have some Jaeger connectors or an easy source. Anyone good at making up cables could probably make one, though I would choose someone experienced who knows the cameras and the specs well. The 4 pin Jaeger can be trickey if one doesn't have skill or experience. 

The standard cables with 4 pin Jaeger/Canon XLR4 I have seen in two versions. One with a coiled cable about 400mm long with connectors, and one with a straight cable about 250 long total, for the on board battery. For the length, copy a standard length, or consider it carefully.

Andrzej at AZ Spectrum, commenting on current draw and V drop at higher fps, advised to keep cables short. So I guess one should also have adequate copper section area (cable size).

The spiral cables are really useful though. I like the idea of the off board battery, and with the XLR4 connector on the camera, really robust, the old concern about stressing up the Jaeger connector is gone.

Gregg.

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  • 3 weeks later...
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Another ebay treasure, whose link will be lost to the sands of time for future readers of these posts, but might be just what someone is looking for right now:  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/266652201046

Title is "16mm Film Camera Eclair Npr Working Condition converted to s16 by Les Bosher" - it's got 3 mags, the Alcan motor, PL mount and Arri mount (Arri-S I presume) and he links to several Vimeo uploads of movies shot with it.  $2300 opening bid (nobody has bid yet), ends in a few days.

He says one of the mags has a stuck counter, but if you've been following along on my NPR mag thread you already know how to fix that ?

I guess one way to avoid the legendary waits for Les Bosher to work on a camera, is to buy one he's already done!

Duncan

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On 7/26/2023 at 7:31 AM, Duncan Brown said:

(Not my auction) - an Alcan 54, even one as beat up as this one, is a rare sight for sure - someone should grab this and hope that it works better than it looks.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275966651460

(For the historical record,  since ebay links die after a few months, it's a battered but complete looking example for $195 Buy It Now, or Make Offer, from a seller in New Jersey)

Duncan

This is extremely funny, I'm almost 100% certain this is about the Alcan motor I purchased last year. Incase anyone was wondering, it was not working, and when I sent it out to a camera tech, he completely destroyed it ?

On an unrelated note, if anybody has a working Alcan motor I'd be in the market!

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...
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A better-than-usually-equipped NPR on ebay for $1800 or best offer.  Angenieux VF, some motor I've never seen before, but sits flat and has crystal sync, original carrying case, etc.  The included "power supply" looks more like a charger, but it sounds like he tested the camera with it so who knows.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/375427713068

Duncan

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  • 4 months later...
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Posted (edited)

I have two Eclair NPR's 

One is Super 16mm (thanks to Les Bosher)

One is Standard 16mm
I have two motors, both are crystal sync but one runs fast
I have 3 magazines
A battery and charger and something to test the battery.
Matte box and two Angenieux zoom lenses.

$7000 and I pay to ship.

This is a trailer for a film I shot with the Aaton crystal sync motor and Standard 16mm

 

This is a link to the other motot's ability to sync. When locked in premiere at 98% speed it was able to sync up exactly with the audio. FYI the film I shot is expired here and the mic was right next to the camera so the camera sound is obnoxious.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QInWOZY6e8jEc7kHXnxYtfyX71iCdDiL/view?ts=66214064

Edited by Allison Copp
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1 hour ago, Allison Copp said:

This is a link to the other motot's ability to sync. When locked in premiere at 98% speed it was able to sync up exactly with the audio. FYI the film I shot is expired here and the mic was right next to the camera so the camera sound is obnoxious.

did not watch the video but that small of a difference might be caused by the crystal aging too much. If it really keeps sync but just runs a little too slow / too fast and the amount is the same all the time. Crystals can often be changed, might be more or less work depending on the construction of the motor (how much it needs to be disassembled to get to the crystal itself) . Some circuits may have calibration trimmer for frequency adjustment which could be off but I have very rarely seen that on crystal motors so probably it is just old crystal being a little too old

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12 hours ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

did not watch the video but that small of a difference might be caused by the crystal aging too much. If it really keeps sync but just runs a little too slow / too fast and the amount is the same all the time. Crystals can often be changed, might be more or less work depending on the construction of the motor (how much it needs to be disassembled to get to the crystal itself) . Some circuits may have calibration trimmer for frequency adjustment which could be off but I have very rarely seen that on crystal motors so probably it is just old crystal being a little too old

or could be aged caps on the crystal which don't have the right capacitance anymore. Or could be both. In any case I think it is the timing reference being off and nothing else wrong with the motor. It is normal for crystal to age and drift and need changing after some decades and the caps will age too even if ceramic which are pretty long lasting. the crystals have estimated aging and drifting values on the datasheets, they all do age and drift more or less.

the crystal itself on the crystal sync motor is easy to find and usually possible to change by a person not specialised in crystal sync electronics. the crystal sync devices themselves are often very complex and difficult to tune and repair but if only checking the crystal and its capacitors it could be easy enough for some "normal" electronics repair person to do. If the motor is easy enough to open enough to get to the crystal, it depends on the exact motor model how easy or difficult it is. some motors need almos complete disassembly and some are pretty easy.

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17 hours ago, Aapo Lettinen said:

or could be aged caps on the crystal which don't have the right capacitance anymore. Or could be both. In any case I think it is the timing reference being off and nothing else wrong with the motor. It is normal for crystal to age and drift and need changing after some decades and the caps will age too even if ceramic which are pretty long lasting. the crystals have estimated aging and drifting values on the datasheets, they all do age and drift more or less.

the crystal itself on the crystal sync motor is easy to find and usually possible to change by a person not specialised in crystal sync electronics. the crystal sync devices themselves are often very complex and difficult to tune and repair but if only checking the crystal and its capacitors it could be easy enough for some "normal" electronics repair person to do. If the motor is easy enough to open enough to get to the crystal, it depends on the exact motor model how easy or difficult it is. some motors need almos complete disassembly and some are pretty easy.

Thanks for the info, I know you're the pro on this stuff! Hope your motor is coming along well. 

I like that the motor can still do the job effectively but that's very interesting about the possibility of changing the crystal.

Would you mind explaining to me exactly what the crystal does, is that technology still used in modern cameras? 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Allison Copp said:

Thanks for the info, I know you're the pro on this stuff! Hope your motor is coming along well. 

I like that the motor can still do the job effectively but that's very interesting about the possibility of changing the crystal.

Would you mind explaining to me exactly what the crystal does, is that technology still used in modern cameras? 

the crystal generates a multi-megaHertz signal which is divided down to suitable level to be used as a reference for motor timing. most older motors work so that the crystal frequency is divided enough to create low frequency signal (like 600Hz) which is same frequency than the signal expected to come from the motor's speed encoder if the motor is running at the desired speed (for example 24fps). the electronics compare the motor signal and the crystal signal which are supposed to be similar: if they are not, the electronics adjust the motor power up or down until the signals match close enough.

so if the crystal frequency is shifted from the original it causes the whole motor to run slightly faster or slower than it was originally intended to be. it has no way to know that there is something wrong because the crystal is its only timing reference so it has to trust the crystal is always right 🙂

getting "exactly correct timing" is a huge issue in electronics in general. All clocks and oscillators have drift and inaccuracy and you need much much better clock to be able to compare if some other clock is "correct" or not. None of them is really really correct in any case but some of them are "closer to what they should be" than others.

for example on the NPR motors I use temperature compensated oscillators which are more precise than 2.5ppm (parts per million) over the operating temperature range. normal crystals used on crystal sync motors, old or new, have accuracy and stability between about 20ppm and 100ppm when the crystal is new, but it can be pretty poor accuracy after five decades of use even if the stability is still fine.

For calibrating the 2.5ppm oscillators I need a frequency counter which has 0.1ppm accuracy in its timing reference and I need a much more accurate gpsdo to test the counter before use and to lock it to if needed, the gpsdo typically has the accuracy around 0.5ppb to 1.5ppb (part per billion). With this setup I can tune the NPR crystal oscillator to be about 0.2ppm accurate in room temperature when it is shipped. Keep in mind that the 2.5ppm is over the full operating temperature range from freezing to over 80°C and if using the camera in room temperature the accuracy is much better.

Every clock is always wrong, it is just the matter of making the error acceptable enough in the specific use you need it for. Mechanical watch for example has poor accuracy but they are perfectly fine for most uses they are intended for if you check and correct them daily.

But like mentioned if you want to calibrate a clock you need much better clock and calibrating and testing that again needs much better clock. At some point you need to spend hundres of k's to a rubidium atomic clock and even then it still is not dead on accurate and you need something better to check if it is entirely correctly running or not 🙂 

Edited by Aapo Lettinen
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for example if checking that original crystal on the old camera motor you would need a frequency counter which is orders of magnitude more accurate than the crystal. 10 times or more should be enough but it warrants a frequency counter which uses tcxo or ocxo as a reference

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On 10/4/2024 at 2:02 AM, Aapo Lettinen said:

the crystal generates a multi-megaHertz signal which is divided down to suitable level to be used as a reference for motor timing. most older motors work so that the crystal frequency is divided enough to create low frequency signal (like 600Hz) which is same frequency than the signal expected to come from the motor's speed encoder if the motor is running at the desired speed (for example 24fps). the electronics compare the motor signal and the crystal signal which are supposed to be similar: if they are not, the electronics adjust the motor power up or down until the signals match close enough.

so if the crystal frequency is shifted from the original it causes the whole motor to run slightly faster or slower than it was originally intended to be. it has no way to know that there is something wrong because the crystal is its only timing reference so it has to trust the crystal is always right 🙂

getting "exactly correct timing" is a huge issue in electronics in general. All clocks and oscillators have drift and inaccuracy and you need much much better clock to be able to compare if some other clock is "correct" or not. None of them is really really correct in any case but some of them are "closer to what they should be" than others.

for example on the NPR motors I use temperature compensated oscillators which are more precise than 2.5ppm (parts per million) over the operating temperature range. normal crystals used on crystal sync motors, old or new, have accuracy and stability between about 20ppm and 100ppm when the crystal is new, but it can be pretty poor accuracy after five decades of use even if the stability is still fine.

For calibrating the 2.5ppm oscillators I need a frequency counter which has 0.1ppm accuracy in its timing reference and I need a much more accurate gpsdo to test the counter before use and to lock it to if needed, the gpsdo typically has the accuracy around 0.5ppb to 1.5ppb (part per billion). With this setup I can tune the NPR crystal oscillator to be about 0.2ppm accurate in room temperature when it is shipped. Keep in mind that the 2.5ppm is over the full operating temperature range from freezing to over 80°C and if using the camera in room temperature the accuracy is much better.

Every clock is always wrong, it is just the matter of making the error acceptable enough in the specific use you need it for. Mechanical watch for example has poor accuracy but they are perfectly fine for most uses they are intended for if you check and correct them daily.

But like mentioned if you want to calibrate a clock you need much better clock and calibrating and testing that again needs much better clock. At some point you need to spend hundres of k's to a rubidium atomic clock and even then it still is not dead on accurate and you need something better to check if it is entirely correctly running or not 🙂 

Thank you! This is so fascinating. It's all like alchemy in my mind. I had to look up why crystals emit a frequency and how the vibration of the crystal is measured.

Sounds like you're making the ultimate motor! Would you consider doing the same outside of just the NPR?

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3 hours ago, Allison Copp said:

Sounds like you're making the ultimate motor! Would you consider doing the same outside of just the NPR?

the same technology than the NPR motor uses will be used on the 2025 version of my ACL motor.

I also have some Arri designs, eyemo stuff, cinema products, etc but they are a bit different. Designing these systems is case by case and I partially combine projects when possible but most of the time that is not possible. Combining projects saves resources but it does not make it easier to develop them, often it takes more time actually and only done to save money

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