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32 minutes ago, Doug Palmer said:

All connecting pieces are totally unique to this camera, and obviously patented. So hopefully nothing is copied by others.

it does not sound there would be anything which could be patented in that design but as long as someone isn't willing to copy the full design with similar manufacturing quality but being much cheaper, you should be fine. This type of designs are ones where people will want to use the original product, not some Chinese copy which is uncertain in quality and reliability. 

Maybe you should make a Kickstarter project out of it and see if you can collect enough backers to make the system possible? I don't believe that the body itself could be mass produced for that low price if it needs to be good quality but you never know.

As for the additional speeds, one could most likely just use the same motor and run a external speed reference signal to the system to get different framerates. Selling complete extra motors would be unnecessary unless the camera is capable of very high framerates and the additional motor would be for those (for example the normal internal motor being capable of from 8 to 50fps and the external motor would allow from 24 to 150 fps for example). Though with a clever design and some work you could just build all the extra speed in the main camera body without  bumping up the price of it much. The user interface may take some space though which would make the camera a little bit larger compared to a single speed version. Depends on the interface you use and if it has a display or not. 

One could think of a design which resembles the Photo Sonics 1VN a bit. A sideways L-shaped body with the shutter and motor on the body but the whole film transport is built into the magazines. The camera body itself is simpler and more affordable but every single magazine costs a fortune. Way to make lots of money out of it! 😄  

(maybe the Photo Sonics is not the best reference for a affordable camera. they are clearly built to very high standards and were crazy expensive back then. Movements made like Swiss clocks and the electronics top notch too. My 1VN has very freaky motor cables which are nothing I have ever seen before, I think the wire is made out of silver or some other very different metal than is normally used for in-camera wires. best of the best for the government which had endless money supply 😄

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This is the big problem. It's compounded by people saying "yes we want XYZ" and when the time comes to buy it, nobody shows up with the cash because as you say below, nobody uses their cameras anyway,

I started working on a niche compact 16mmm camera using 100ft daylight spools (coax), and I decided to change the layout, so it can also take 200ft daylight spools. They still can be bought new f

Thank you for your thoughts Tyler. I agree with you on many points. To build an XTR style camera today would cost over 60K, as you cannot benefit from a larger scale manufacturing as Aaton did in its

2 minutes ago, Heikki Repo said:

Unfortunately those prices are pure fantasy 🙂 It ain't cheap to make custom metal pieces and if someone is to put it all together, that person probably would also need to be paid for the work... 😇

I would expect that at least 200 cameras would need to be pre-ordered in the first batch to cover all the costs and to make the manufacturing process economic and automated enough so that it lowers the price of the mechanical parts even a little bit. Maybe more. If the movement is complicated and the film transport is anything else than the very simplest one, then it would be uncertain if the 1k price range would work at all. I would expect this type of design to be in the 2500 to 3000 USD range for the body and one magazine depending on the features and the manufacturing batch sizes and the overall quality of the design. But like Heikki and others said before, the custom mechanical parts are very very challenging to get for peanuts. That is why modifying existing cameras tends to be much cheaper than building completely new ones... you don't need every gear and axle and claw and fitting to be custom made. Magic bullets can happen in the electronic world but in the physical world it is much harder to make miracles especially if they need to be cheap. And one can't build good cameras without making most of the film transport with traditional mechanical parts which need to be good enough quality to make it steady and functional

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Thanks Heikki and Aapo for sobering me up on this idea. I suppose I was really saying that a new 16mm reasonably priced camera is a far better proposition than a super-8 camera such as the one Logmar made. The intrinsic quality of 16mm is so superior and potentially a far greater market I would think. Using all the good design points from the past, and keeping the overall size very compact, with all the electronics that didn't exist last century. It's not even that necessary to make it too robust. If you drop it you buy another 😀

I hope I didn't give the idea I was thinking of making a camera. Certainly beyond me ! But I see that one or two on this thread are perhaps doing this. Would be great for these guys to maybe get together on Kickstarter.... or maybe the world is too different now.

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I am no longer in the market for a camera such as this, but I was recently thinking about it.

I think my dream camera would be somewhere between a K3 and an A-Minima, only quieter, and compatible with daylight spools.

I was also thinking how useful and affordable Tokina's APS-C 14-20mm f2 zoom or 11-20mm f2.8 zoom would be on an EF-mount adapted K3. But of course the K3 is too loud for sync sound and is not crystal sync. I wonder if it's possible to manufacture an Aaton mount to Nikon adapter compatible with gelded lenses such as the Tokinas and use these on Aaton mount XTRs for instance.

Anyway, I'd love something like that designed to take 100 foot daylight spools but also quiet enough for sync sound and with some sort of timecode or guide track for sound. Because I think once you get to the level of an XTR or SR3 it's already a larger production so forget competing with that (or 200 foot or 400 foot magazines) unless you're really planning to go all out.

But a quiet b camera even with a digital finder like the Logmar could be nice. Maybe I just regret missing out on the Ikonoskop A-cam when it was available. It looked pretty cool to me.

It is interesting how expensive reflex Bolexes are today. I was looking at a REX-5 and converting it to super16, but the prices were too high and I went with two other cameras instead. But I think this reveals that there is a market for small S16 cameras if so many people are looking at REX-5s.

There's no way to make this quiet enough for sync sound I imagine? That would be really cool. 

I also want a dSLR form factor Amira lol. I want things that don't exist.

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1 hour ago, M Joel W said:

I am no longer in the market for a camera such as this, but I was recently thinking about it.

I think my dream camera would be somewhere between a K3 and an A-Minima, only quieter, and compatible with daylight spools.

I was also thinking how useful and affordable Tokina's APS-C 14-20mm f2 zoom or 11-20mm f2.8 zoom would be on an EF-mount adapted K3. But of course the K3 is too loud for sync sound and is not crystal sync. I wonder if it's possible to manufacture an Aaton mount to Nikon adapter compatible with gelded lenses such as the Tokinas and use these on Aaton mount XTRs for instance.

Anyway, I'd love something like that designed to take 100 foot daylight spools but also quiet enough for sync sound and with some sort of timecode or guide track for sound. Because I think once you get to the level of an XTR or SR3 it's already a larger production so forget competing with that (or 200 foot or 400 foot magazines) unless you're really planning to go all out.

But a quiet b camera even with a digital finder like the Logmar could be nice. Maybe I just regret missing out on the Ikonoskop A-cam when it was available. It looked pretty cool to me.

It is interesting how expensive reflex Bolexes are today. I was looking at a REX-5 and converting it to super16, but the prices were too high and I went with two other cameras instead. But I think this reveals that there is a market for small S16 cameras if so many people are looking at REX-5s.

There's no way to make this quiet enough for sync sound I imagine? That would be really cool. 

I also want a dSLR form factor Amira lol. I want things that don't exist.

People can make anything if it is paid for beforehand.... A dream to come true S16 camera as well if there would be enough backers.

It would be possible to make dslr fo factor or slightly larger Amira too. It just needs making very complex custom signal processing circuitry which is too expensive to make to a camera only sold in quantity of hundreds or thousands. It is basically ASIC vs. FPGA where the fpga's are used for low quantity products like cine cameras and asic for large volume product like dslr. The asic is much more energy efficient and thus needs less power and less cooling which makes the camera smaller. This is why the current mirrorless cameras can have cine capable image quality and raw video with fraction of the power requirements and size compared to similar cine camera. And still be cheaper

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1 hour ago, aapo lettinen said:

People can make anything if it is paid for beforehand.... A dream to come true S16 camera as well if there would be enough backers.

It would be possible to make dslr fo factor or slightly larger Amira too. It just needs making very complex custom signal processing circuitry which is too expensive to make to a camera only sold in quantity of hundreds or thousands. It is basically ASIC vs. FPGA where the fpga's are used for low quantity products like cine cameras and asic for large volume product like dslr. The asic is much more energy efficient and thus needs less power and less cooling which makes the camera smaller. This is why the current mirrorless cameras can have cine capable image quality and raw video with fraction of the power requirements and size compared to similar cine camera. And still be cheaper

Yes, I recently have been using the EVA1, S1H and S1. Panasonic seems to have an edge on ASIC processors. The image is very good from all of them and they don’t consume much power. It’s pretty amazing.

A7SIII also looks amazing. Dynamic range is on par with cinema cameras. Pretty impressive what you get for the money now.

 

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On 10/29/2020 at 8:19 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

Or work out something with Pierre to make new Aaton's from the original blue prints. 

this is probably the most realistic way to get it done. build under a license from Aaton, use their IP. Does make one wonder what it would cost to do a new run of a-minimas...

 

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2 hours ago, Robin Phillips said:

this is probably the most realistic way to get it done. build under a license from Aaton, use their IP. Does make one wonder what it would cost to do a new run of a-minimas...

 

A Minima would be tricky because it has such a limited market. At least with the XTR, the market is more "standard" for sync sound cameras. It covers a wider range of would-be owners. 

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On 11/1/2020 at 5:43 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

A Minima would be tricky because it has such a limited market. At least with the XTR, the market is more "standard" for sync sound cameras. It covers a wider range of would-be owners. 

perhaps? I think the biggest downside to the a-minima is needing to rewind the film. but its size is perfect for so many things.

Granted I also have no idea what it cost to make that. Any chance you have any idea?

I suspect getting new xtrs or a minimas, assuming a crazy rich person doesnt come along wanting to just pay to build them, might hinge on some rental houses wanting new / spare ones. That itself is all dependent upon demand for professional use of 16. I have no idea what that demand is now, especially with some places just not renting film cameras anymore.

Anyway, if a conspiracy does form to make more Aaton anythings count me in

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one of the issues with Aaton XTR and similar style cameras is that they are not very gimbal friendly. Nowadays one would want to have the possibility to mount one's new expensive S16 camera any way one likes and the very long magazine of the XTR combined with the mass distribution of the camera body does not make it the best choice for modern filmmaking all the time. Maybe if there would be more mag options. 

The issue was that one needs to have very high build quality on the new camera. Whether it is a copy of the existing Aaton designs or a completely new 2020 design. It does not make it any cheaper if it is a copy of the old cameras if the build quality has to be the same unless one has a supply of readily made old camera parts and can just custom make a few new pieces to get the system working. If one needs to manufacture all the parts to build the camera, there would be more sense to just design a completely new camera and make that instead like the OP was already doing. Then one would get rid of that old mag design as well

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On 11/3/2020 at 1:45 PM, aapo lettinen said:

one of the issues with Aaton XTR and similar style cameras is that they are not very gimbal friendly.

Make a little 100ft daylight spool magazine, problem solved. 

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32 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Make a little 100ft daylight spool magazine, problem solved. 

with the magazine costing about 2k or 2.5k when David could make a whole new camera for 5k?  sounds very economic :D

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4 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

with the magazine costing about 2k or 2.5k when David could make a whole new camera for 5k?  sounds very economic 😄

Only reason to make a new camera is because there aren't any to buy. Obviously if you own a camera like I do, there is no reason to buy a new camera. 

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7 hours ago, Uli Meyer said:

There’s an a-Minima on eBay. The description isn’t clear but it looks like it is in a good condition. $14.2k is a lot of money though when you can’t test it. 
Does Kodak still sell the 200ft for those mags? Probably not. 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284059227312

Can't get the film. It's also "reversed" emulsion side in. So it's very tricky to deal with. 

I think the A Minima is a prototype that was released to the public. It's not a great camera, it's got many issues. I'm not a fan at all sadly. I was offered one for a few grand a few years ago and declined because at the time, you could get XTR's for $2500 bux! Remember those days? lol 

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On 11/4/2020 at 7:33 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

Make a little 100ft daylight spool magazine, problem solved. 

 

On 11/4/2020 at 8:06 PM, aapo lettinen said:

with the magazine costing about 2k or 2.5k when David could make a whole new camera for 5k?  sounds very economic 😄

I'm very serious about this 100' magazine idea. If anyone thinks they could make one, or modify one from an existing mag, please contact me. If anyone would want one or two and be willing to put up the money to preorder a batch with a group of others, also message me and I will start to put a list together.

DM on here or andrew dot skalak at gmail.

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You mean to have a magazine that can use the common 100ft spools in the Minima? It can be done I did it, but as I discovered it’s not easy, I built a magazine, that was the easy part, but my attempt wasn’t entirely successful, there were two reasons; firstly, I couldn’t create a reliable mechanism to drive the take up spool and secondly I think a crucial factor that I overlooked is the camera’s mechanism design, the way the film travels through the rollers, the claw and the loops these are all optimised for film is coming from the Minima spools which is emulsion out that has the right film curl for emulsion out film..

As far as I know Kodak doesn’t do the film anymore; apparently it's all about the 'natural curl of the film', in the original Kodak Minima spools the film was loaded emulsion out and this film curled in particular way. People often get Minima spools and load with normal film loading it emulsion out this film curls in a different way, but to get excellent results the film has to curl right, for normal [emulsion in] film it can take a while to get the to film curl right so that it behaves like film on the emulsion out and therefore the image may not always be perfectly steady.

Pav

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Great to hear from people who know the camera. The minima‘s size and weight is what appeals to me specifically but I would never consider buying one without knowing more about it. The thought of being able to taket a Super 16mm camera with a PL mount for a walk through the park on your own is tempting but the film spool issue is a deterrent.  

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1 hour ago, Uli Meyer said:

Great to hear from people who know the camera. The minima‘s size and weight is what appeals to me specifically but I would never consider buying one without knowing more about it. The thought of being able to taket a Super 16mm camera with a PL mount for a walk through the park on your own is tempting but the film spool issue is a deterrent.  

I guess at the moment the closest 16mm camera there is to A-Minima size with reflex viewfinder and option for PL mount is the early version of Eclair ACL. Its 200ft mags allow for normal winding on core and 100ft daylight spools. Most labs should be able to spool down to 200ft loads if you buy 400ft of film.

If you happen to have extra money just laying around and want such camera, there is on BB List an ACL that has been there for ages -- the seller (from UK) won't consider any offers and the price is relatively high, but I guess that even with buying from him and then having it S16 modified by Les Bosher and a PL adapter added would be much cheaper than a minima, under £2500.

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16 hours ago, Andrew Skalak said:

I'm very serious about this 100' magazine idea. If anyone thinks they could make one, or modify one from an existing mag, please contact me. If anyone would want one or two and be willing to put up the money to preorder a batch with a group of others, also message me and I will start to put a list together.

Only way to make it, would be to take a current Aaton mag and move the parts over to a new housing. Then all someone would have to do is make a new housing. I think a daylight spool mag would be great, but it would still be very expensive. Even if you traded in your mag to get the new mag, it would still be a few grand if it weren't mass produced. This is the big problem because if you start manufacturing things like the pressure plate, the guides and sprocket's, that's a huge expense. 

So are there enough people wanting to LOSE a 400ft mag for a 100ft mag? 

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Use 16mm split reels to create a 100ft core from a 400ft roll or standard 100ft daylight spool and load into the current 200ft ACL mag or 400ft Aaton mag. 

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It sounds like a simple job to move the parts over to a new housing, but it isn’t and things aren’t cheap, I have been making a small magazine for my Éclair ACL that accepts 100ft spools of film, like many I like using the small 200ft magazine, I normally use 100ft spools in mine, because it’s a lot easier than getting film on 200ft spools or cores. I have been working out how much my 100ft magazine has cost me and have realised it’s been quite expensive. First; I bought an old magazine, it didn’t matter if it worked I just needed it’s front that clicks into the camera, it was an old 400ft English magazine, I have looked around and when they come up for sale they are between £100-£200, I cut the magazine down, this took a lot of time as I had to disassemble it, once cut I cleaned all the components and reassembled them this took a lot of time. Second; I made a new metal frame, because this frame is one piece it had to be strong and had to be made to precision, it cost me a lot, I drilled holes in the magazine front and attached the frame. Third; to make the new magazine light tight I made side panels again out of metal, because of the precision for making panels for both sides and front and ensuring they’d be light tight again they cost a lot. Fourth; I used nylon spacers for the rollers and long screws - these were cheap, I created a thin wall inside [like the earlier Kodak K cameras] and made two chambers and attached a take up spool to it, the wall is made of tin and again it cost hardly nothing, but the take up spindle cost a lot as I had made it out of light plastic via 3D printing, this is linked to large sprocket by a commonly found [Ebay] tape player belt. In total the magazine has cost me just upwards of £700 and I haven’t accounted for my time, or for my research, or the parts that I made which couldn’t be used because they were not right or slightly out of tolerance and then there were other costs for many miscellaneous items, tools and postage, so really the costs are probably nearer to the £1000 mark.

Pav

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46 minutes ago, Pavan Deep said:

I have been making a small magazine for my Éclair ACL that accepts 100ft spools

Would love to see it. Any chance of a photo?

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